EU Referendum - La Deuxième Partie

[Ben Kenobi]

Well said Cort Haus.

[kentonio]

It's kind of ironic how much the Daily Mail hate Europeans, considering how far up Hitler's ass they were before WW2.

[kentonio]

It's so often assumed that all opposition to the EU in Britain is automatically down to negative factors like xenophobia and parochialism, rather than being based on a strong democratic impulse. Opposing the EU isn't the same as being anti-Europe, it is opposing an elitist, arrogant and unelected ruling class. There can be a better Europe, but not under this model.

This might be more believable if the average British citizen actually gave a rats ass about anything to do with domestic politics. The most vocal people supporting the Leave campaign are usually the same ones who didn't have a single word to say about any of the various government moves to curtail democracy in the UK over the last 20 years.

[Dauphin]

This might be more believable if the average British citizen actually gave a rats ass about anything to do with domestic politics. The most vocal people supporting the Leave campaign are usually the same ones who didn't have a single word to say about any of the various government moves to curtail democracy in the UK over the last 20 years.

The democracy deficit argument is a valid one and it's the main reason I would vote to leave if I were to vote that way. If a voter wants it to be the deciding factor it is certainly believable. Not being vociferous when you have little influence is a different scenario that a referendum where you have a direct vote on a decision and you want to discuss the reasons for your decision. The influence x importance metric is entirely different.

That said, if you are talking about politicians, I entirely agree with you. For example. 91 Tory MPs voted against Lords reform to make it more democratic. Over half of those who voted against are now voting to Leave. It rings hollow when they say it's because they want to remove the control of unelected officials over our lives. They had no desire to get rid of those in the UK parliament.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18793449

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/which-tory-mps-back-brexit-who-doesnt-and-who-is-still-on-the-fence/

Hearing Lords Lamont and Lawson talk about an undemocratic governing body in Europe is irony.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Yes, the leave campaign is an insult to common sense as well. John Major had a good segment yesterday

In a remarkable interview, Sir John rubbished leave campaign claims that pulling out of the EU would allow Britain to spend more money on the NHS pointing out the Mr Gove and Mr Johnson had both advocating charging for services in the past.

"Michael Gove wanted to privatise it, Boris wanted to charge people for using it and Iain Duncan Smith wanted a social insurance system," he said.

"The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with a hungry python."

Exactly right too.

Wrong people are campaigning for wrong reasons on both sides. Jeremy should be campaigning to leave on sovereignty concerns, but he is not doing it given that he cannot sway the labour platform, and perhaps for a legitimate fear that once UK leaves and this monster falls apart - the consequences will be truly catastrophic for everyone including UK.

This is the only valid reason to stay as far as I am concerned, but again in my view - better to leave now, as if the risk of catastrophic failure is very high now, it will only be greater in a decade once this whole thing collapses anyhow. Better to get out and prepare for it, than wait for the event from within.

EU cannot survive under the weight of it's lack of governance. Give the world another 2008 (and it is increasingly likely we are heading back there), the implosion will be spectacular. It may be better that EU causes this next event itself, and sooner rather than later, so that the rest of the world can pick up more pieces, as opposed to the eventual implosion as a result of another event.

Anyhow - those are my thoughts on the subject at this stage, EU cannot either reform or survive in the current setup, and UK can help everyone by going out now, even with Boris, IDS, Michael Gove and Nigel F. at the helm of the leave campaign which should be called "for all the wrong reasons".

UK in this case should leave - not elect Boris to be the next PM, and get on with the business of renegotiating trade and other deals with the rest of the world on it's own, with the expectation of EU's up and coming collapse.

For the "stay" campaign - which is also full of **** - someone should try to explain to me "How will the get to some sort of democratic governance in EU, and how will even that (which is an impossible task in it's own right, as unelected bureaucrats will not want the will of the people forced upon them either) save it from collapse given the hundreds, if not thousands of issues about basic institutional setup that are undermining it."

For sure this is too high level of a debate to have, given that there is really no solution and even if you won the referendum and the government in the UK based on it, the EU would not agree to this agenda, so it would all be just empty promises.

[Dauphin]

Brexit odds have shortened. 2-1. And the ratio of wagers being placed suggest people think those odds are longer than they should be.

[BeBMan]

Rumour has it that' there's also this years Steam Summer Sale beginning June 23.

[Bereta_Eder]

I have long said that the first cousins of europeans (english) are just crazy enough to do it.


I shall qualify this by a simple justapostiction between the beer quaffing stiff upper lip english and the screw around dance around shout twist but then everything is alright greek.

You have to focus your madness. This takes some discipline.

When it reaches critical mass you unleash it causing maximum havoc.

I believe the brit have that morbid unatural discipline but alas, they will vote to stay.

Hopefully they know that the polls are fixed (50%-50%) so as to consolidate the "stay" vote

[Bereta_Eder]

However one has to point out a blant banality.
The world moves forward through necessity.

It won't matter if the brits vote yes or no (however if they vote out, the EU is toast now)

There is a collective cultural idenity that transmutes to economics.

This common cultural entity supercedes, preceeds, defines and kills if need be the european project.

This culture is in danger but it is spectacularly european.

So yes to europe might depend on whether the EU says the same thing.

Otherwise, there will be another EU.

[kentonio]

I shall qualify this by a simple justapostiction between the beer quaffing stiff upper lip english and the screw around dance around shout twist but then everything is alright greek.

And in a single sentence you just showed you have no idea what the English are like..

[Bereta_Eder]

You have to play a bit with stereotypes otherwise it's boring
(but it's true. I have no idea what they are like)

[pchang]

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graph...-eu-referendum

Looks like a very close thing that no one can predict.

[Bereta_Eder]

The polls are fixed to scare them off and go vote for stay.
Old trick. Tried.

[BeBMan]

[Bereta_Eder]