Chimpanzees granted 'legal persons' status to defend their rights in court

[Jon Miller]

Additionally, some test might be the best we have been able to develop, but that doesn't mean it is 'good'.

JM

[Sava]

Because it isn't measuring what I consider intelligence.

Your personal definition is irrelevant

A significant part of the scientific community agrees.

citation needed or your statement is complete bull****

[Hauldren Collider]

Enough with both to know that apes and chimps aren't that bright, and not nearly as bright as a 2 year old, most of whom seem pretty ****ing sharp to me. It takes significant training, with food rewards and punishment, to get monkeys to understand and execute tasks that you could easily explain verbally to any small child.

[Sava]

Enough with both to know that apes and chimps aren't that bright, and not nearly as bright as a 2 year old, most of whom seem pretty ****ing sharp to me. It takes significant training, with food rewards and punishment, to get monkeys to understand and execute tasks that you could easily explain verbally to any small child.

Once again it is scientific fact versus HC's opinion.

Here's $20. Run along.

[Lorizael]

Chimps may be more intelligent than they first appear (especially because there is a pretty insurmountable language barrier), but chimps clearly do not have the intellectual capacity that humans do. No chimps solve partial differential equations, build rockets, or argue over the internet (excepting possibly AAHZ). Whether this distinction is significant from a rights perspective is a matter of debate.

[Sava]

Chimps may be more intelligent than they first appear (especially because there is a pretty insurmountable language barrier), but chimps clearly do not have the intellectual capacity that humans do. No chimps solve partial differential equations, build rockets, or argue over the internet (excepting possibly AAHZ). Whether this distinction is significant from a rights perspective is a matter of debate.

Your opinions need to be stronger and more conclusive without support.

[Jon Miller]

2 second example

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/iq-tests-are-fundamentally-flawed-and-using-them-alone-to-measure-intelligence-is-a-fallacy-study-finds-8425911.html

JM

[Kidlicious]

Makes you doubt the intelligence test.

Seriously, whenever I read that some animal is as intelligent as a 2 year old or 4 year old or whatever I think 'WTF'. It just proves that we have no understanding of intelligence.

Have you ever seriously watched how a baby human learns? It is incredible.

JM

I don't blame tests as much as I blame stupid people.

[Sava]

2 second example

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/iq-tests-are-fundamentally-flawed-and-using-them-alone-to-measure-intelligence-is-a-fallacy-study-finds-8425911.html

JM

do you have a larger point? that article is about IQ tests

[Lorizael]

Your opinions need to be stronger and more conclusive without support.

I have a strong opinion on this subject, but I really should be solving partial differential equations instead...

[Elok]

Chimps may be more intelligent than they first appear (especially because there is a pretty insurmountable language barrier), but chimps clearly do not have the intellectual capacity that humans do. No chimps solve partial differential equations, build rockets, or argue over the internet (excepting possibly AAHZ). Whether this distinction is significant from a rights perspective is a matter of debate.

It would probably help if we had a commonly-agreed, explicitly stated understanding of what rights are, where they come from, and why we have them. Until then we're in much the same position as people in medieval times arguing about the accuracy of Durer's rhinoceros.

[Kidlicious]

If you could teach a chimp to do differential equations he could probably do partial differential equations.

[Sava]

It would probably help if we had a commonly-agreed, explicitly stated understanding of what rights are, where they come from, and why we have them.

Sure. But that probably requires people stop believing in magical invisible bearded men in the sky. That is, if our understanding of rights wants to be compatible with reality.

[Elok]

I don't even believe in natural rights, fumbduck.

[Proteus_MST]

Enough with both to know that apes and chimps aren't that bright, and not nearly as bright as a 2 year old, most of whom seem pretty ****ing sharp to me. It takes significant training, with food rewards and punishment, to get monkeys to understand and execute tasks that you could easily explain verbally to any small child.

Apes aren´t bright?
Do you know Homo sapiens sapiens?
They are very advanced tool users, have developed written and spoken languages and are apable of Maths
They also are members of the order Primates and belong to the Family of Hominidae ... the Great Apes (together with Chimpanzees, Orangs, Gorillas and other species).
So, unless you are living as the only human inhabitant on a lonely island, I guess you encounter a lot of bright apes in your everyday live

As for teaching other apes to do things ... do you know Kanzi?
Kanzi is a Bonobo who is very well known in primate research for his ability to communicate with Lexigrams.

Well, the researchers must have trained him from early childhood with rewards and punishment isn´t it?

No they didn´t (from the beginning on) ... they actually trained Kanzis Mother (and Kanzi due to his age, accompanied her to these lessons) ... it was actually a surprise to the researchers (especially as he seemed to be rather desinterested when his mother was taught the lexigram language) when one day they found out that Kanzi was able to communicate with lexigrams as well ... and on a much higher level than his mother.
He learned it all without direct training (and without any hope for rewards or fear of punishments).


Want another example (this one in the wild)?
Japanese Macaques are mentally on a much lower level than great apes ...
nevertheless it is known to research, that several macaque "tribes" have developed their own traditions ...
one tribe for example has the ability to open hard nutshells by using 2 stones as hammer and anvil, another tribe has disovered that sweet potatoes taste much better if you wash them in salt water.
All this knowledge is traded from parents to children and is unknown to other tribes of japanese macaques.

This may not sound very impressive, compared to launching rockets to the moon ... or being able to globally communicate via Internet.
But as we know from the development of the species of apes who accomplished these feats (i.e. Homo sapiens sapiens), they also started small ... with primitive stone tools ... that they got such a huge stimulus in their intellectual/cultural development may have a lot to do with them developing a written language ... and maybe also with the first steps into religion (i.e. beginning with shamanism and polytheism)