Or you could go really out there and think that if all matter in universe came from a single point, and will one day return to one, then we're all just parts of a giant cosmic cycle where we are forever parts of the same whole.
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Originally posted by dannubis View PostBut what about the split second "before" the singularity ?
I am actually wairing sunglasses right now...
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Originally posted by Aeson View PostIt's not justification, it's explanation.
Originally posted by kentonio View PostNo, I'm saying that meaning itself doesn't exist ... What meaning we construct is for our own personal mission to make our all too brief existences as fulfilling as we can.
Originally posted by kentonio View PostOn a wider point though, I just don't recognize your point about how without some greater goal suddenly all behaviour suddenly becomes fine. I actually find it pretty bizarre and disturbing. So without a god in your life you'd suddenly be running around murdering people and helping yourself to anything you wanted? I don't have one, and I've never felt any desire to do any of those things.
Elok's point is not that the absence of religion will sudden cause religious people to become evil psychopaths, but that the one reason for that sense of revulsion he believes is legitimate will disappear. That is, he (and I, and others) doesn't think things like "common decency" and "because that's clearly wrong, you psycho" are good justifications for that revulsion, because without a higher authority there is no meaning, which means there can be no meaning behind the revulsion (that isn't simply an evolutionarily programmed response).
(I might be making my own point and not yours, Elok. Tell me so if that's the case.)Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
"We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld
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I think religious people need to lighten up a little and let their hair down.
Lori, your problem is that you think too much about pointless, or even detrimental things. In fact, I may even go so far as to suggest that a large number of the problems you're currently suffering, are from a general lack of self-worth because you're finding yourself failing to attain whatever artificial 'higher purpose' you have set yourself.
Just stop and go out and get laid. Everything is better when you get laid."Aha, you must have supported the Iraq war and wear underpants made out of firearms, just like every other American!" Loinburger
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I enjoy thinking about this kind of stuff.Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
"We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld
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Originally posted by Lorizael View PostStrictly speaking, these two statements are logically incompatible. They're not, though, which more or less proves my point. You're content to act as if meaning and the feeling of meaning (which is what you get when you construct your own meaning) are the same thing. I am not content to act in such a way. You think that's sad; I don't. My life's goal is to find meaning, but I don't pretend that my goal is important or meaningful. It's simply what I've decided to do to stave off nihilism, and there's the added benefit that if I succeed, doing meaningful things may be possible.
Originally posted by Lorizael View PostI've addressed this before, and I really get tired of seeing this argument. Everyone who refrains from bad behavior (without fear of immediate punishment) does so because their sense of right and wrong tells them to refrain. This often manifests itself as revulsion. You probably shudder at the thought of decapitating and skull****ing pre-pubescent, handicapped children. Most people do, probably even Elok! The difference is the ultimate source of revulsion for religious folks is their religion (because God imbued them with a sense of morality, perhaps), whereas for non-religious folks, this revulsion comes from something like "common decency" or what have you.
Elok's point is not that the absence of religion will sudden cause religious people to become evil psychopaths, but that the one reason for that sense of revulsion he believes is legitimate will disappear. That is, he (and I, and others) doesn't think things like "common decency" and "because that's clearly wrong, you psycho" are good justifications for that revulsion, because without a higher authority there is no meaning, which means there can be no meaning behind the revulsion (that isn't simply an evolutionarily programmed response).
(I might be making my own point and not yours, Elok. Tell me so if that's the case.)
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Originally posted by Lorizael View PostI enjoy thinking about this kind of stuff.
Me, I prefer indulging in my evolutionarily programmed responses..."Aha, you must have supported the Iraq war and wear underpants made out of firearms, just like every other American!" Loinburger
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In the last couple of years I have started enjoying blogs. I just realised Elok had a blog yesterday (and it has some good entries, I recommend that others read it).
I started reading http://blog.supplysideliberal.com/ because of the economic content but the religion content is pretty good too (the writer is a former mormon now atheist unitarian universalist). Some recent posts
Jack Miles won a Pulitzer Prize for his book God: A Biography . By the “biography” of God, he means in this case the character development of God one sees if one reads the Hebrew Bible as a piece of literature. Since there is a significant chronological element to the arrangement of books within
http://blog.supplysideliberal.com/po...onstruction-of (a guest blog from a still religious friend)
http://blog.supplysideliberal.com/po...believe-in-god (Noah Smith, who also writes about religion here)
This is an updated version of my June 10, 2007 sermon to the Community Unitarian Universalists in Brighton . I wanted to post this sermon sooner rather than later because of the importance I feel for the project it lays out of securing all the benefits of religion to unbelievers in the supernatura
(Among other things, he studies Happiness from the Economics perspective)
While I disagree with his positions, it is interesting to hear his position (more interesting than the positions of most atheists who I talk to) and so I thought I would contribute that here.
JMJon Miller-
I AM.CANADIAN
GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
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Originally posted by kentonio View PostIf you want to spend your life doing that, then obviously that's your right and privilege and I wish you well with it. I do find it sad though, as it could just be one aspect of a much broader and richer experience. It's certainly not my place to judge though, each person has to find their own happiness.
Why is an evolutionarily programmed response not good enough? Everything about us is evolutionarily programmed, yet for this one thing we suddenly need something greater?
Originally posted by I AM MOBIUS View PostWhy? Seems like a total waste of time to me. Especially when you get to the inevitable conclusion that there is no divine being, or beings.
Me, I prefer indulging in my evolutionarily programmed responses...Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
"We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld
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Originally posted by kentonio View PostIf the universe is just a giant pulsing heartbeat, then the split second before would be the last moment of all matter returning to its centre.“As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
"Capitalism ho!"
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Originally posted by Lorizael View PostWhat I'm getting at is that people want justification, not explanation. People want to believe they have reasons for being moral other than a cold mental calculus of what sates their desires (including possibly altruism). So what is and what people believe are at odds, but this doesn't stop people from believing in things like justice and community and all that jazz, when those things might be no more than roughly shared desires.
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