Next Game of Thrones book The Winds of Winter won't be out until 2016

[Imran Siddiqui]

You are the one being a complete and utter ass here. We all agreed back in the main game of thrones thread 5hat if it had aired on the TV show then it wasn't a spoiler and people were free to talk about it without the spoiler tags. So don't get all bent out of shape when I do just that and answer a direct question from him.

You are such a ****ing idiot. He was talking about whether he should watch the show.

Why don't you tell him exactly all about the show, including spoilers, that he hasn't watched so he can decide if he can watch the show?

How can you be this ****ing stupid?

[Cort Haus]

... I'm listing the reasons I don't read the books: they (supposedly) take place in a world bereft of beauty or goodness. Basically a cage match between Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini and Tojo. Who gives a damn who wins?

But it isn't a binary, manichean affair. The characters, like in real life, can be a mix of good and bad. A few are all good. More are all bad, but many lie in-between, and redemption is actually a key theme for some of the characters.

Lord of the Rings gives us a nice easy white hat and black hat scenario, which makes it easy to know who to root for, but is essentially child-like in its moral simplicity in comparison to the GOT series.

[Jon Miller]

Lord of the Rings gives us a nice easy white hat and black hat scenario, which makes it easy to know who to root for, but is essentially child-like in its moral simplicity in comparison to the GOT series.

I disagree, but would agree if you replace Lord of the Rings with Tolkien imitators.

Lord of the Rings is only an easy white hat and black hat scenario if you don't read it critically.

JM

[rah]

In general I'll agree that Tolkien's characters were usually more black and white but not completely.
Gollum is probably the best example and Boromir also (and to a lesser extent his brother) are just a few examples.

But GOT is MUCH better at shades of grey.

[Cort Haus]

Lord of the Rings is only an easy white hat and black hat scenario if you don't read it critically.

JM

Well, I suppose there is the business about Gondor the imperialist aggressor depicting its vanquished, dark-skinned victims as wicked to justify their oppression. And when the rebel leader Sauron raises an army of liberation, it took the white supremacist wizard, Mithrandir, to crush and destroy the revolt.

[Cort Haus]

In general I'll agree that Tolkien's characters were usually more black and white but not completely.
Gollum is probably the best example and Boromir also (and to a lesser extent his brother) are just a few examples.

But GOT is MUCH better at shades of grey.

Faramir? A fairly straight-up good guy, ISTR. Anyway, the ring gets the blame for the behaviour of Boromir, Gollum, and even Frodo at times.

[rah]

As I said. GOT's characters usually have a lot more depth in terms of not being just good or bad.

But I wanted to state that not all of LOTR characters where just one dimensional characters. (regardless of whatever the cause was)
And yes, Faramir based on his original actions. (and I did say to a lesser degree)

[Jon Miller]

I have a hard time thinking of any one dimensional characters in Lord of the Rings, beyond Sauron/the Balrog/Orcs and similar. Even the elves (at least the ones that get characterization) are not one dimensional (Galadriel and Elrond very very obviously).

You saying 'they are a one dimensional, the bad behaviour is from the ring' shows a demonstrates a complete failure of critical reading.

Requiring purposeful blatant Evil (with a capital E) behavior to consider a character multidimensional is a very flat perspective of anything. I hope you don't carry it on to the rest of your lives.

JM

[I AM MOBIUS]

You still haven't read that PEW Poll, have you?

I have, but you haven't: your claim about 30-35% of muslims support terrorists from it is utter bollocks - here it is: PEW report

Even the title is a clue:

Muslim Publics Share Concerns about Extremist Groups

[I AM MOBIUS]

You are such a ****ing idiot. He was talking about whether he should watch the show.

Why don't you tell him exactly all about the show, including spoilers, that he hasn't watched so he can decide if he can watch the show?

How can you be this ****ing stupid?

All this.

Just because it was agreed in a different thread doesn't mean that's automatically the case here.

[rah]

Assuming of course that a majority of the DK/Refused weren't just refusing since they didn't want to appear to support them.

[kentonio]

I have a hard time thinking of any one dimensional characters in Lord of the Rings, beyond Sauron/the Balrog/Orcs and similar. Even the elves (at least the ones that get characterization) are not one dimensional (Galadriel and Elrond very very obviously).

You saying 'they are a one dimensional, the bad behaviour is from the ring' shows a demonstrates a complete failure of critical reading.

Requiring purposeful blatant Evil (with a capital E) behavior to consider a character multidimensional is a very flat perspective of anything. I hope you don't carry it on to the rest of your lives.

JM

Yes, but the depth of character flaws are diluted when they're put up against Mordor. It basically becomes 'well that guy has some jealousy problems but hey those guys want to turn the entire world into an endless nightmare of evil'. That's why GoT gets away with highlighting character flaws, because there really isn't a bad side as such.

[rah]

Damn I hate agreeing with you


The biggest difference is that in GOT there are "evil" characters that you can like. That is not really possible in LOTR. And that is very telling.

[Jon Miller]

Yes, but the depth of character flaws are diluted when they're put up against Mordor. It basically becomes 'well that guy has some jealousy problems but hey those guys want to turn the entire world into an endless nightmare of evil'. That's why GoT gets away with highlighting character flaws, because there really isn't a bad side as such.

Others.

JM
(at least so far)

[Elok]

Faramir? A fairly straight-up good guy, ISTR. Anyway, the ring gets the blame for the behaviour of Boromir, Gollum, and even Frodo at times.

The ring is a metaphor.