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  • historical Jesus also a myth?

    Did the historical Jesus exist? A growing number of scholars don’t think so

    Most antiquities scholars think that the New Testament gospels are “mythologized history.” In other words, they think that around the start of the first century a controversial Jewish rabbi named Yeshua ben Yosef gathered a following and his life and teachings provided the seed that grew into Christianity.

    At the same time, these scholars acknowledge that many Bible stories like the virgin birth, miracles, resurrection, and women at the tomb borrow and rework mythic themes that were common in the Ancient Near East, much the way that screenwriters base new movies on old familiar tropes or plot elements. In this view, a “historical Jesus” became mythologized.

    For over 200 years, a wide ranging array of theologians and historians—most of them Christian—analyzed ancient texts, both those that made it into the Bible and those that didn’t, in attempts to excavate the man behind the myth. Several current or recent bestsellers take this approach, distilling the scholarship for a popular audience. Familiar titles include Zealot by Reza Aslan and How Jesus Became God by Bart Ehrman.

    But other scholars believe that the gospel stories are actually “historicized mythology.” In this view, those ancient mythic templates are themselves the kernel. They got filled in with names, places and other real world details as early sects of Jesus worship attempted to understand and defend the devotional traditions they had received.

    The notion that Jesus never existed is a minority position. Of course it is! says David Fitzgerald, author of Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All . For centuries all serious scholars of Christianity were Christians themselves, and modern secular scholars lean heavily on the groundwork that they laid in collecting, preserving, and analyzing ancient texts. Even today most secular scholars come out of a religious background, and many operate by default under historical presumptions of their former faith.

    Fitzgerald is an atheist speaker and writer, popular with secular students and community groups. The internet phenom, Zeitgeist the Movie introduced millions to some of the mythic roots of Christianity. But Zeitgeist and similar works contain known errors and oversimplifications that undermine their credibility. Fitzgerald seeks to correct that by giving young people interesting, accessible information that is grounded in accountable scholarship.

    More academic arguments in support of the Jesus Myth theory can be found in the writings of Richard Carrier and Robert Price. Carrier, who has a Ph.D. in ancient history uses the tools of his trade to show, among other things, how Christianity might have gotten off the ground without a miracle. Price, by contrast, writes from the perspective of a theologian whose biblical scholarship ultimately formed the basis for his skepticism. It is interesting to note that some of the harshest debunkers of fringe Jesus myth theories like those from Zeitgeist or Joseph Atwill (who tries to argue that the Romans invented Jesus) are from serious Mythicists like Fitzgerald, Carrier and Price.

    The arguments on both sides of this question—mythologized history or historicized mythology—fill volumes, and if anything the debate seems to be heating up rather than resolving. A growing number of scholars are openly questioning or actively arguing against Jesus’ historicity. Since many people, both Christian and not, find it surprising that this debate even exists—that credible scholars might think Jesus never existed—here are some of the key points that keep the doubts alive:

    1. No first century secular evidence whatsoever exists to support the actuality of Yeshua ben Yosef. In the words of Bart Ehrman (who himself thinks the Jesus stories were built on a historical kernel): “What sorts of things do pagan authors from the time of Jesus have to say about him? Nothing. As odd as it may seem, there is no mention of Jesus at all by any of his pagan contemporaries. There are no birth records, no trial transcripts, no death certificates; there are no expressions of interest, no heated slanders, no passing references – nothing. In fact, if we broaden our field of concern to the years after his death – even if we include the entire first century of the Common Era – there is not so much as a solitary reference to Jesus in any non-Christian, non-Jewish source of any kind. I should stress that we do have a large number of documents from the time – the writings of poets, philosophers, historians, scientists, and government officials, for example, not to mention the large collection of surviving inscriptions on stone and private letters and legal documents on papyrus. In none of this vast array of surviving writings is Jesus’ name ever so much as mentioned.” (pp. 56-57)

    2. The earliest New Testament writers seem ignorant of the details of Jesus’ life, which become more crystalized in later texts. Paul seems unaware of any virgin birth, for example. No wise men, no star in the east, no miracles. Historians have long puzzled over the “Silence of Paul” on the most basic biographical facts and teachings of Jesus. Paul fails to cite Jesus’ authority precisely when it would make his case. What’s more, he never calls the twelve apostles Jesus’ disciples; in fact, he never says Jesus HAD disciples –or a ministry, or did miracles, or gave teachings. He virtually refuses to disclose any other biographical detail, and the few cryptic hints he offers aren’t just vague, but contradict the gospels. The leaders of the early Christian movement in Jerusalem like Peter and James are supposedly Jesus’ own followers and family; but Paul dismisses them as nobodies and repeatedly opposes them for not being true Christians!

    Liberal theologian Marcus Borg suggests that people read the books of the New Testament in chronological order to see how early Christianity unfolded. “Placing the Gospels after Paul makes it clear that as written documents they are not the source of early Christianity but its product. The Gospel — the good news — of and about Jesus existed before the Gospels. They are the products of early Christian communities several decades after Jesus’ historical life and tell us how those communities saw his significance in their historical context.”

    3. Even the New Testament stories don’t claim to be first-hand accounts. We now know that the four gospels were assigned the names of the apostles Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, not written by them. To make matter sketchier, the name designations happened sometime in second century, around 100 years or more after Christianity supposedly began. For a variety of reasons, the practice of pseudonymous writing was common at the time and many contemporary documents are “signed” by famous figures. The same is true of the New Testament epistles except for a handful of letters from Paul (6 out of 13) which are broadly thought to be genuine. But even the gospel stories don’t actually say, “I was there.” Rather, they claim the existence of other witnesses, a phenomenon familiar to anyone who has heard the phrase, my aunt knew someone who . . . .

    4. The gospels, our only accounts of a historical Jesus, contradict each other. If you think you know the Jesus story pretty well, I suggest that you pause at this point to test yourself with the 20 question quiz at ExChristian.net.

    The gospel of Mark is thought to be the earliest existing “life of Jesus,” and linguistic analysis suggests that Luke and Matthew both simply reworked Mark and added their own corrections and new material. But they contradict each other and, to an even greater degree contradict the much later gospel of John, because they were written with different objectives for different audiences. The incompatible Easter stories offer one example of how much the stories disagree.

    5. Modern scholars who claim to have uncovered the real historical Jesus depict wildly different persons. They include a cynic philosopher, charismatic Hasid, liberal Pharisee, conservative rabbi, Zealot revolutionary, nonviolent pacifist to borrow from a much longer list assembled by Price. In his words (pp. 15-16), “The historical Jesus (if there was one) might well have been a messianic king, or a progressive Pharisee, or a Galilean shaman, or a magus, or a Hellenistic sage. But he cannot very well have been all of them at the same time.” John Dominic Crossan of the Jesus Seminar grumbles that “the stunning diversity is an academic embarrassment.”

    For David Fitzgerald, these issues and more lead to a conclusion that he finds inescapable:

    Jesus appears to be an effect, not a cause, of Christianity. Paul and the rest of the first generation of Christians searched the Septuagint translation of Hebrew scriptures to create a Mystery Faith for the Jews, complete with pagan rituals like a Lord’s Supper, Gnostic terms in his letters, and a personal savior god to rival those in their neighbors’ longstanding Egyptian, Persian, Hellenistic and Roman traditions.

    In a soon-to-be-released follow up to Nailed, entitled Jesus: Mything in Action, Fitzgerald argues that the many competing versions proposed by secular scholars are just as problematic as any “Jesus of Faith:” Even if one accepts that there was a real Jesus of Nazareth, the question has little practical meaning: Regardless of whether or not a first century rabbi called Yeshua ben Yosef lived, the “historical Jesus” figures so patiently excavated and re-assembled by secular scholars are themselves fictions.

    We may never know for certain what put Christian history in motion. Only time (or perhaps time travel) will tell.


    It wouldn't surprise me if there was actually no historical Jesus. Though, I think it doesn't matter either way. Believing in a religion because of some random dude 2,000 years ago isn't much better than doing it because of fairy tales.

    But I digress. I'm curious to read the responses from people who disagree with the article.
    Last edited by Sava; November 14, 2014, 11:15. Reason: forgot link :mad:
    To us, it is the BEAST.

  • #2
    Troll .

    The vast majority of historical scholars do believe that a Rabbi named Jesus (well, Yeshua bin Yosef - or something like that) existed. The amount of proof we have for folks that existed thousands of years ago is ridiculously scant. I believe that there is only ONE contemporaneous mention of Alexander the Great, and that was discovered in the 1950s (I'm betting Alexander wasn't a myth before that discovery).

    In addition, Paul is writing letters to churches back and forth - I am not sure why talking about Jesus's historical life is necessarily going to factor into them. Obviously it seems, a Christian community has already built up fairly substantially by 50 AD. Paul appears to be written to some of these communities on matters of what should be done.

    edit: btw, where is the link? You trying to be MrFun
    “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
    - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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    • #3
      crap I forgot
      lemme find it
      To us, it is the BEAST.

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      • #4
        Thank you
        “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
        - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui View Post

          The vast majority of historical scholars do believe that a Rabbi named Jesus
          citation needed
          To us, it is the BEAST.

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          • #6
            The vast majority of historical scholars do believe that a Rabbi named Jesus (well, Yeshua bin Yosef - or something like that) existed. The amount of proof we have for folks that existed thousands of years ago is ridiculously scant. I believe that there is only ONE contemporaneous mention of Alexander the Great, and that was discovered in the 1950s (I'm betting Alexander wasn't a myth before that discovery).

            In addition, Paul is writing letters to churches back and forth - I am not sure why talking about Jesus's historical life is necessarily going to factor into them. Obviously it seems, a Christian community has already built up fairly substantially by 50 AD. Paul appears to be written to some of these communities on matters of what should be done.
            This isn't quite true for alexander, but it depends on your definition of contemporaneous. Plutarch has him in the Lives of the Noble Greeks, and most would consider him to be a reliable source, despite being written in 100 AD, about 400 years after Alexander, and the fact that the earliest presently extant manuscript of the lives dates to the Norman Conquest.

            WRT to the bible - it was written by eyewitnesses (the disciples), and the earliest present manuscript that is relatively whole of the entire NT is Codex Vaticanus, dating to about 320.

            There's really no comparison between the two. And it's a fair comparison, with the biblical letters being written roughly the same time as Plutarch's Lives.
            Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
            "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
            2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Ben Kenobi View Post

              WRT to the bible - it was written by eyewitnesses (the disciples), and the earliest present manuscript that is relatively whole of the entire NT is Codex Vaticanus, dating to about 320.
              How do you know it's written by witnesses if the earliest manuscript is dated 300 years after those "witnesses" allegedly existed?

              What proof do you have that the "witnesses" even existed?
              To us, it is the BEAST.

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              • #8
                How do you know it's written by witnesses if the earliest manuscript is dated 300 years after those "witnesses" allegedly existed?
                Most ancient manuscripts have their earliest presently extant manuscripts dating to the 12th, 13th centuries. They usually have another first printed edition dating to the 16th.

                The better question you should be asking is who preserved all these ancient manuscripts?

                What proof do you have that the "witnesses" even existed?
                Again, Plutarch's Lives is not an obscure book and a fair comparison. Do you doubt that Alexander the Great existed? Almost all you think you know about him is from the Lives of the Noble Greeks. The biblical manuscripts are second to none for ancient documents and I believe, but not certain, wholly superior to any manuscript prior to the invention of the printing press.
                Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
                  Do you doubt that Alexander the Great existed?

                  Billions of people don't base their entire worldview and belief system on whether or not Alexander the Great existed.

                  Can you provide me with better responses/arguments? These suck... and I don't feel like calling you a dumb**** in every post... even though you are one.
                  To us, it is the BEAST.

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                  • #10
                    Billions of people don't base their entire worldview and belief system on whether or not Alexander the Great existed.
                    Today? No. But in Late Antiquity? Hellenism is one of the most successful belief systems in the history of ever, and it has always had proponents. And Alexander is their most important person.

                    Can you provide me with better responses/arguments?
                    I don't see the argument that says Plutarch is a reliable source when writing about Alexander (400 years after the fact!), and the books of the bible are not reliable sources, being written within 50 years of the death of Christ.

                    400 >>> 50. And the extant manuscripts are also a world apart. The reason why Plutarch's Lives has survived is because it was one of the best selling books in the history of the ancient Greek world of late antiquity.
                    Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                    "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                    2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sava View Post
                      Can you provide me with better responses/arguments?
                      A simple "no" would have sufficed.
                      To us, it is the BEAST.

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                      • #12
                        what's matters here is not whether jesus, or alexander the great for that matter, existed (and despite the fact that the earliest surviving written references to alexander come centuries later, those histories are full of references to earlier works, which are no longer extant; there are also other contemporary inscriptions and other sources, the best known probably being the decree of philippi), but rather the historical effects that they had.

                        there is of course another difference. alexander is seen and thus studied as a historical figure who existed in a particular place and time; when we talk about alexander, we are not thinking of now. jesus on the other is seen as, and thus studied as, the son of god; therefore, god being a reflection of man, when we talk about jesus, we are thinking of now and of ourselves. in other words, jesus is a universal figure, who may or may not have had a historical existence, but who certainly has a universal existence, in our minds and thoughts.

                        so if it were discovered that alexander the great didn't have a historical existence, then he would cease to exist, or least be relegated to being considered alongside other mythical kings. however if it were thought doubtful that jesus didn't have a historical existence, the effect would be very different. because the historical jesus plays a very small part in jesus. the major part, another (albeit unusually successful) chapter in man's conversation about god, that is to say, man's conversation about man, would remain unchanged.
                        "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

                        "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

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                        • #13
                          there is of course another difference. alexander is seen and thus studied as a historical figure who existed in a particular place and time; when we talk about alexander, we are not thinking of now. jesus on the other is seen as, and thus studied as, the son of god; therefore, god being a reflection of man, when we talk about jesus, we are thinking of now and of ourselves. in other words, jesus is a universal figure, who may or may not have had a historical existence, but who certainly has a universal existence, in our minds and thoughts.
                          Alexander was considered to be the Son of Zeus in Plutarch. So the comparison is valid. Lives is an important book to Hellenism as a concept of the great men and history and the culture of Greece.

                          because the historical jesus plays a very small part in jesus. the major part, another (albeit unusually successful) chapter in man's conversation about god, that is to say, man's conversation about man, would remain unchanged.
                          What do the Gospels actually say? They talk about Jesus and his ministry here on earth in the 3 years that he was here, ending with his death on a cross. If you take out the historical Jesus and the Gospels, you remove everything about Christianity. The faith is based on what he actually did in those 3 years.
                          Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                          "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                          2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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                          • #14
                            c0ckney, you continue to amaze me with posts that are as thoughtful as they are annoying to read due to posting style
                            To us, it is the BEAST.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
                              Alexander was considered to be the Son of Zeus in Plutarch. So the comparison is valid. Lives is an important book to Hellenism as a concept of the great men and history and the culture of Greece.
                              no. alexandre is important as a warrior king who conquered a vast swath of territory and whose generals and other comrades shaped that part of the world for centuries to come, not as a religious figure.

                              What do the Gospels actually say? They talk about Jesus and his ministry here on earth in the 3 years that he was here, ending with his death on a cross. If you take out the historical Jesus and the Gospels, you remove everything about Christianity. The faith is based on what he actually did in those 3 years.
                              there are many possible historical jesuses, put forward throughout history, and these of course tell us far more about the author’s own ideas and perceptions than about any historical figure. the particular myth about jesus' life which one chooses to believe is relatively unimportant, what matters is the conversation about god (man) that jesus represents.
                              "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

                              "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

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