So, just how useless are the European NATO members?

[Hauldren Collider]

The kind of increases needed to get military spending up to a 2% of GDP are barely a blip compared total social expenditures anyway.

Except none of you have the money to pay for the social programs you already have. Virtually every euro country is running a serious deficit (I realize the US is too, and that's one of many reasons Obama has to go), so there just isn't any money to increase government spending.

[Hauldren Collider]

To be honest I think a lot of this is our fault. We're the leaders, and we haven't been doing any leading since Clinton took over. And right now we're in the process of snubbing every one of our allies and commitments while kowtowing to countries that would like to go back to the bad old days of drawing borders by force. Why should anyone trust us?

[Main_Brain]

You say that like its exactly the same as being one country with one chain of command, intelligence agency, logistics agency, etc, and not a few dozen.

Serious Question: How many Intelligence Agencies does the US actually have? CIA, NSA, ONI, NRO, NGI, MCIA.. ?

[kentonio]

It won't be long before Australia's navy is more powerful than Britain's, despite having a quarter of the population.

Yes, because the massive carriers we're building will have no effect on our naval projection capabilities. You ****ing knob.

[Hauldren Collider]

Correct, they won't, because you don't have any planes for them.

Or surface combatants to defend them as part of a battlegroup.

Australia is a great model by the way for what Euro countries could be. They may soon have aircraft carriers too, apparently their PM is talking about outfitting their Canberra class with F-35Bs.

[Main_Brain]

Holy Crap Seventeen

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...ence_Community)

[Hauldren Collider]

The important ones are basically just NRO, CIA, FBI and NSA. The others are basically each service branch's map making office. There's a lot of duplication and waste in the US federal government. A lot of them are just redundant.

[kentonio]

Oh, pff. Seriously? This is what you're going with? "There's never been a war in Europe since NATO started, therefore we haven't had any benefit with US involvement".

You were the one throwing around lines about the US 'fighting and dying'. Maybe you should save those for when you actually do.

It's own interests or not, it is "doing other people favors". It's effectively subsidizing the welfare states of Western Europe. No need to spend money on defense if you know Uncle Sugar is going to come running.

Except that we already spend on defence, just not at the obscene levels of America.

Yes, guarding contractors who are drilling wells in quiet sectors of Afghanistan is exactly equivalent the US being expected to go toe-to-toe with Russia.

I'm sure that's a real comfort to the 179 British servicemen and women that died in Iraq or the 453 who have lost their lives fighting in Afghanistan. *****.

Man, both me and Rage have provided sources where that just is not true. You guys are largely sitting there letting your militaries get hollowed out(actually, they are already hollowed out). Sorry, but only having a few dozen Typhoons to defend Germany is not "managing most of it's defense needs".

No, you've pointed to some crap about maintenance levels, as if that couldn't be resolved long before any major power could prepare for an invasion that we'd know about long in advance. This isn't 1939, you can't launch a major invasion in ****ing secret.

European nations aren't peers to the United States. Individually they have far smaller economies and far weaker militaries. So let's not pretend that they are peers. Taken together, if we were to wave a magic wand and make the EU one country with one foreign policy and one military, it would certainly be a peer, but that isn't the reality. Japan is closer to a peer than all of Europe except France and the UK. China is a peer. The Nordic countries, Italy, Germany, Low Countries, etc. are not peers.

Your typical American arrogance shows exactly why so many people that used to consider America an ally and a beacon now hate you. Your time as the worlds only superpower is ending and quite frankly it can't come soon enough. You've used and relied on your long term allies for decades whilst acting as if you're the ones doing everyone else a favour. Let's see how well you get on when you arrive at a genuine crisis and discover that all the countries you've insulted and mocked show zero interest in helping you.

[Sava]

Seriously, the US should consider exiting the alliance.

Good plan.

Alienate our allies.

We're basically being saddled with a bunch of retards

Now you know how I felt reading your post and the posts from people who seem to sympathize with what you said.

[Hauldren Collider]

Kentonio, Russia took over Crimea without firing a shot and without warning. Yes, everyone who can find their own ******* with both hands saw it coming, but none of those people currently occupy positions of power in the US or Europe. Russia is advancing its capabilities as the Obama admin is shrinking ours and the European's capabilities have all the force projection of Snoopy's sopwith camel. If Russia wanted Eastern Europe badly enough it would probably have it and you wouldn't have time to stop it and our current administration would probably be too busy writing speeches to notice.

[Sava]

I really hope the Republican candidate in 2016 makes disbanding NATO part of the platform.

Hell, get the candidates in 2014 on board with that while you are at it.

idiots

[Hauldren Collider]

Leaving NATO is not a republican plank. If anything, it's more popular among democrats.

[kentonio]

Kentonio, Russia took over Crimea without firing a shot and without warning.

No they didn't. The west had full knowledge of Russian movements along that border, regardless of whether they believed they would cross or not. Do you have any idea of the scale of troops and material that would be required for a full invasion of Western Europe? It'd take many, many months of preparation and we'd certainly know long in advance of any actual crossing.

Russia is advancing its capabilities as the Obama admin is shrinking ours and the European's capabilities have all the force projection of Snoopy's sopwith camel.

Shrinking yours? Do you have any idea how outrageously vast the US military is? You could cut spending by 3/4 and still be comfortably the most powerful military on the planet. As for this crap about Europe, if you actually believe that you're a bigger fool than your brother. You're talking about some of the most technologically advanced and rich nations on the planet. Does it really sound even remotely convincing to you that they don't have any military capacity considering they were on the front line during the cold war and have fought numerous conflicts since? It's nothing more than stupid 'America **** yeah!' bull****.

[Hauldren Collider]

No they didn't. The west had full knowledge of Russian movements along that border, regardless of whether they believed they would cross or not. Do you have any idea of the scale of troops and material that would be required for a full invasion of Western Europe? It'd take many, many months of preparation and we'd certainly know long in advance of any actual crossing.

As I said,

Yes, everyone who can find their own asshole with both hands saw it coming, but none of those people currently occupy positions of power in the US or Europe.

Or at least even if they did see it coming, they were too cowardly to do anything about it, and in my mind that's the same damn thing.

[Hauldren Collider]

Shrinking yours? Do you have any idea how outrageously vast the US military is?

Soon it won't be vast enough to keep China from ****ing around with Vietnam, Taiwan and the Phillipines, keep shipping lanes in the Persian Gulf open, and keep Russia from ****ing around in the Med at the same time. Which is what it needs to be able to do.

You're talking about some of the most technologically advanced and rich nations on the planet. Does it really sound even remotely convincing to you that they don't have any military capacity considering they were on the front line during the cold war and have fought numerous conflicts since? It's nothing more than stupid 'America **** yeah!' bull****.

It is a fact that your militaries are hollowed out forces lacking the equipment necessary to fight a conventional foe like Russia. I don't doubt for a split second that you could have the kind of military you're describing if you just put up the dough.