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  • CivBE Load-Out and Base Economy

    More and more info is coming out about CivBE. With the livestream on game settings and load-outs the very early game has been clarified a lot. For the options on what is available (at this point in development) can be found on the CivBE Wiki.

    It will be interesting to see what, if any, changes are made from this point until release and how evaluations hold up when more of the mid-late game is exposed. Hopefully player speculation may even prompt some of those changes if anything is seen as "out-of-whack".

    Base Economy Analysis

    The clearest view of Firaxis's intended balance on the base economy looks to be the Colonist load-out screen. There we have very ratios between Food, Production, Science, Energy, Culture, and Health. F, P, S look like they are assumed to be roughly equal. Culture is viewed as slightly less useful than the F/P/S counters and given a Health bonus. Energy is viewed as even less useful than Culture with a +1 to Energy over the +2 everything else gets and still getting the Health bonus.

    What isn't initially clear is how much of a benefit Health is. If past games are any indication, it will be highly difficulty dependent. This is because the limits on expansion (tall or wide) have always been placed on the player and scaled up as difficulty gets harder. Health presumably being this limit, the higher the difficulty the more Health difficulties the player will have and the sooner the soft-caps will approach being hard-caps on expansion/growth.

    Learning from the History of Civilization

    One thing Civ has always been bad at balancing is rush building. Whipping and chopping have been areas that players heavily abuse in past Civ games. It's been targeted by game mechanics to slow down snowballs, 1UPT to remove massive military action from the table almost entirely, nerfs and patches ... and still come out the winner in many cases.

    Cash rushing hasn't always been as big a factor, but that's because it hasn't always been available from day one. It's actually more powerful than the others since there's no negative associated with it. No Happiness hit from whipping (or later Drafting), or Health hit and potential long-term Production loss from chopping. TRush building is very powerful. Since Energy rushing is available from the start in Beyond Earth, rush building seems like it will be a very important aspect of the game.

    Focused vs Balanced

    In the playthrough both the Firaxians seemed to not want to overload one economic area heavily. In past Civ games though, most powerful strategies involve overloading one area to gain a clear advantage, and then using that advantage to leverage into all the other things you passed up. This lets you do the main focus more efficiently, and then everything else with some additional benefit that was gained. It's targeted imbalance ... sorta like rocking a heavy stone back and forth, placing shims under it on alternating sides, and lifting it when there's no way you could lift that much weight with brute force.

    I think many of the Load-Out strategies are going to go for this type of imbalance to start. Identify a crucial target, obtain that target ASAP, and leverage it to obtain all other targets. This doesn't necessarily mean choosing the same bonus in all areas of course, there are synergies to consider. But I think trying to cover all your bases ends up with a jack-of-all-trades, master of none type situation.

    Colonist Load-Out

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    • Scientists: +2 Science in every City
    • Refugees: +2 Food in every City
    • Aristocrats: +3 Energy and +1 Health in every City
    • Engineers: +2 Production in every City
    • Artists: +2 Culture and +1 Health in every City


    - Scientists look good. They have some flexibility given that the techs you research can affect different areas. A solid option.

    - Refugees also have flexibility. Food is the one thing you have to have, so you're more guaranteed growth with Refugees than with any other. This growth can be directed towards generating output towards any of the other counters directly by using tiles with lower F output but higher P/E/C output, or by growing population to work more tiles later.

    - Aristocrats would seem a natural match to an Energy rush opening. The Health bonus should also be beneficial towards a rush heavy start. You're going to want to expand quickly both to get more Energy and to spend it ... and Health should give you more headroom there.

    - Engineers have flexibility in much the same way Scientists do. You can build things that increase counters in other areas. This is an all around solid option. Too little about the Wonders and Buildings outside of the initial techs are known to really quantify this well yet though.

    - Artists are the hardest one to quantify. They look very strong. You basically choose which economic counter(s) your colonists will affect after you start the game. How much sooner the Virtues can be selected isn't quite clear. Sooner to get Frugality might not mean much, probably 10% Food for one or two pop growths before the non-Artists catches up ... but then you're sooner to the next one too. Opening up new tiles is also a nice benefit.

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    There's certainly no "bad" options here since they're all nice benefits. But I think the Health kickers on Aristocrats and Artists make them stronger than may initially appear on higher difficulty levels. Refugees look like the other strong option.

    Ship Load-Out

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    • Continental Surveyor - Reveal Coasts on Map
    • Retrograde Thrusters - Wider area for choosing where to land first City
    • Tectonic Scanner - No technology is needed to see Petroleum, Geothermal, and Titanium resources
    • Fusion Reactor - Begin with 100 Energy
    • Lifeform Sensor - Reveal Alien Nests on Map


    - Continental Surveyor shows you the coasts, which is cool. But the key is it doesn't kick in until after you've landed, so much of it's value is already gone. I see this as a "wow" factor without much of substance to back it up.

    Giving you the info you're on a small landmass from day one could help you better prepare. However, starting with a Scout means that even in this case, you're likely to have that information rather quickly, and there are good general purposes choices to make in the interim.

    - Retrograde Thrusters shows you a wider area where to land. Since you see this before landing, and can't move your first city after this choice is made, it's a very powerful upgrade. It can be the difference between an optimally placed city, and game-long regrets.

    Statistically this may be the best option, though there will be games where it doesn't help you at all. There may even be times when it hurts you by luring you out towards the edges, and end up being badly placed for future resources you can't see yet but that the map generator allotted to increase the value of your starting location.

    - Tectonic Scanner shows you resources without the techs. It's hard to say how valuable this is given we don't know exactly what the resources are good for, or how long it would take to see them normally. Does it show the resources before landing like Retrograde's bonus ... or is it after landing like Tectonic's? I could see taking it to optimize city location if it's the first scenario ... but it loses much of it's value if the second scenario. In that case Retrograde Thrusters would almost always be better at helping you place your first city.

    - Fusion Reactor gives extra Energy. This seems like a bit too small an amount to really make it worth considering except in fringe cases where you have a really specific gambit and need to rush buy a piece of the puzzle ASAP.

    - Lifeform Sensor is very interesting. This is the essence of what scouting is about. As we saw in the second live-stream ... stumbling into an Alien Nest could very well mean the end of your Explorer. The main question I have about it is if you can see the terrain the nests are on. Given the way Tectonic Scanner works, I would assume you see the terrain, but after landing. Also I am wondering if nests tend to be on strategic resources as they have been appearing on them in high frequency in the videos?

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    I'm torn between Retrograde Thrusters for a better city site, and Lifeform Sensor for early Scouting safety and possibly Alien farming purposes. The gambler in me would take Retrograde Thrusters, as it could make a dramatic impact on your early game. It might fizzle out and provide no benefit though. Lifeform Sensor, if it shows the terrain under nests, could be very useful towards helping you plan the early and mid game, as well as for safely scouting your initial landmass. (Not as important for Purity players.)

    If Tectonic Scanner and Continental Surveyor showed before landing then they would be competing with Retrograde Thrusters. I'm more sure of this in regards to Continental Surveyor than Tectonic Scanner. But both seem to not be useful for initial city placement and not much help for Scouting either.

    Cargo Load-Out

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    • Hydroponics: Begin with an extra Population in your first City
    • Laboratory: Begin with the Pioneering technology
    • Raw Materials: Begin with a Clinic building in your first City
    • Weapons Arsenal: Begin with a Soldier unit
    • Machinery: Begin with a Worker unit


    - Hydroponics is a nice option if you can count on landing on a site with 2+ tiles with 3+ output. If you feel lucky, go with Hydroponics. Otherwise go with Machinery.

    - Laboratory looks like a decent option for the REX and rush build start. It gives you more to rush right off. I don't think it can match Machinery.

    - Raw Materials can't match Laboratory. You get more Science from Laboratory, and it's not like it's an optional tech that you would skip otherwise. The Health from the Clinic is not a factor in the timeframe involved.

    - Weapons Arsenal seems rather outclassed here. Take something else and build the Soldier when you want it. We're talking about ~10 turns of movement lost for one Soldier. That's not much of a load-out option.

    - Machinery is a Worker right off. We'll need a spreadsheet to determine whether this or Hydroponics is the right choice for a given starting location. I suspect Machinery will be the most common "right" start. The implementation of Forest chops will weigh heavily in that determination though.

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    There are some possible synergies here that might push you off a Hydroponics or Machinery start to Laboratory, but I can't see a point to Raw Materials or Weapons Arsenal.

    Obviously Firaxis can't make it too important to have the first military unit, or all the other options become impossible to choose. So we're left with the first military unit not being necessary, and thus likely to be rarely if ever being the right choice.

    In regards to Raw Materials, it looks like Laboratory always offers more value. There just isn't a situation I can think of where you'd want to build a Clinic but not get Pioneering relatively quickly as well. There might be situations where you might bypass a Clinic though, and in general could build it faster than you could research Pioneering.
    Last edited by Aeson; August 25, 2014, 03:44.

  • #2
    This is the best thing I've heard about Beyond Earth so far honestly.
    The choose your own bonuses is a great idea.

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    • #3
      My inference from analogy to Civ4 is that refugees + machinery will be the right answer every game. If your surrounding terrain is good enough for hydro then you really want refugees - but hydro is antsynergistic with refugees. So swap it to machines.

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      • #4
        Yah, it would take a great starting location for Hydroponics + Refugees to be a better option than Machinery + Refugees. We don't have enough info about how the Food box scales, Worker improvement times, to make a really accurate analysis yet.

        The main problem with the +Food/Pop options is that Health is going to be a limiting factor on growth (wide and tall) as well. Where the soft caps become hard caps isn't clear yet. Likely it will scale by difficulty level. Food is more valuable on low difficulty than high difficulty. This is why I would expect the +Health Colonist options may end up the most valuable on higher difficulties. Will need to see the way Health is implemented in more detail first. I know in Civ V the only real limit on expansion was Happiness.

        Whether or not there is a form of pop rushing, and if so what the penalties are for using it, will also factor in to that evaluation. So far I haven't seen anything to suggest pop rushing is in the game, which would undermine the value of early Food/Pop options quite a bit.

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        • #5
          There is no way that health becomes an issue on the 2nd or 3rd pop point. And early game advantages are incredibly powerful. Speeding up your early game by one turn puts you a turn ahead for the entire rest of the game.

          And you don't need pop rushing to be in the game (although why wouldn't it?) for the extra pop to be amazing - population is always good.

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          • #6
            While faster growth is nice, so is higher max pop/number of cities. Which is going to be better (in which settings) will depend on how how they adjust the Health allowance for each difficulty level, as well as how quickly Health resources can be obtained within the game. I think it's still to little information to tell for certain, except that Health won't be a major concern on the lower difficulty levels we've seen so far.

            As for pop rushing, while you don't need it for pop to be good, it definitely increased the value of pop in previous games. I'm only speculating that it's not in CivBE, since there hasn't been any visible method to pop rush in any of the videos. It may be they just haven't covered it or I missed something though.

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            • #7
              Playing a turtle type game of Deity Civ V last night ... that kind of game is much less reliant on Happiness than aggressive expansion. Health in CivBE will likely be along the same lines.

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              • #8
                Now that there's been a lot more info out about the game, it looks like Artists are clearly the best option .. and would be even without the Health. Colony Initiative (3 into Prosperity) looks like the sooner the better. This will give you your second (or third) city ASAP, and you can start benefiting from internal Trade Routes. With Artists you can get there faster than any other option. The 10% bonus to growth and 30% reduction in founding Colonies are also very useful early on.

                Then getting 5 into Industry (or 6) after that for the Trade Route bonuses at Interdependence Networks looks like something that will be very important. Boosting the OMG OP internal Trade Routes by 25% is always going to be the right thing to do.

                Culture is going to be very important in this game, and it's the one thing you can't count on in absurd volumes from Trade Routes. There are Culture Stations, but it's hit or miss if you'll get one... and even then you will at most get 2 or 3 Culture producing Trade Routes in a game that max out at maybe 10 to 15 Culture per turn. Whereas you can get 3 per city for Food and Production or Science and Energy... in those cases from 5 to 20+ of each for each route.

                ---------------------------

                Also now that more is known about the resources Tectonic Scanner opens up ... If you found a city on a resource, it disappears. You need 3 separate techs to reveal each of the resources (Titanium, Geothermal, and Petroleum). The tech for Petroleum and Geothermal are ones you probably wouldn't want to research if you didn't have those resources. Though Geothermal may be one you don't want to research anyway. You can sell it, but other than that it appears next to useless for most of the game. (I'm not impressed by the Wonders we've seen that use it.)

                Titanium is very important. It's used for most Satellites and some of the Purity units. It's also a good early production tile. The Purity Battlesuit is one I can see even Supremacy and Harmony getting in many games ... It's only a level 4 in Purity and is a strong unit that is in a very useful portion of the Tech Web. So it can increase your overall military numbers of Affinity units tremendously by allowing you to use all that Titanium to put boots on the ground. Without much opportunity cost. Going to want some side Affinity points anyway most of the time for the later upgrade options.

                So Tectonic Scanner can help you avoid deleting resources in your starting area, give you a good early boost to production if you're lucky (Titanium) and save you from wasting Science into at least 1 Tech (2 or 3 perhaps) if you don't have access to the resources. I think it's the best option by a good margin.

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                Machinery is still the best cargo option. Laboratory is interesting because it opens up Colonists and Trade Routes, but you probably don't want to start your first Colonists before you would have researched Pioneering anyway. You might be able to get Colony Initiative with a couple Culture Pods, but doing so is most likely to happen if you start with Explorer builds, and a Pioneering start has to start with a Worker build or fall rather far behind on tile improvement.

                I'd much rather start with a Worker and be able to spam out a few Explorers to start the game, while researching Pioneering. Everything is on time that way. Explorers when they're worth the most, Pioneering by the time a Trade Route (station/International) is available, and Colonists by the time you want to build them.

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                • #9
                  ali

                  There is no way that health becomes an issue on the 2nd or 3rd pop point. And early game advantages are incredibly powerful. Speeding up your early game by one turn puts you a turn ahead for the entire rest of the game




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                  Aamir
                  Last edited by Bigshow; October 25, 2014, 02:53. Reason: signature not show.

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