Ashers Baking Company: 'Gay cake' row could end up in court

[molly bloom]

Christians are salt and light to the world.

I'm not sure pompous horse**** is a condiment anywhere, but you're much closer to that despite your body chemistry.

[molly bloom]

You're missing the point--or, at least, my point. It's not the customers per se, or rather it hasn't been in all the cases I've heard of so far. They specifically object to the nature of the service, in that it requires them to affirm/support/what-have-you something they consider to be sin.

Sorry but that's nonsense. You think publishers of the New Testament or Holy Bible or Koran or Bhagavad Gita are all affirming their adherence to the tenets of those beliefs ?

A baker or cake maker is making food, sometimes with an additional decorative function or a celebratory function. As Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate birthdays or Christmas should we really believe that no bakers or cake makers are J.W.s, or that any J.W. employee gets an opt out clause to allow them not to participate in the making of birthday cards, Christmas presents, Yule logs, and so forth ?

No one is asking or expecting a baker or cake decorator to lead the next LGBT pride march based on the nature of the goods they supply.

Interesting how you're willing to use the power of the state to punish Christians who happen to disagree with you.

Oh wow, Sister Bendy- how very unlike any state church or religion!

You remember how you managed not to know how old the Inquisition was, and how many there were ? Well, as priests/clergy were theoretically banned from drawing blood, they simply asked the state to do the job of torture instead.

Of course in the Dirty War in Argentina, the Roman Catholic Church had no problem profiting from the misdeeds (torture, murder) of the state's opponents either.


Religious hypocrisy, ancient and modern- don'tcha just love it ?

[molly bloom]

"Am I my brother's keeper"?

Given that (according to your own testimony) you've alienated your own brother, ex-landlords and 'friends', one rather hopes not.

[Ben Kenobi]

The geneticism of homosexuality makes a massive difference, because it seems quite obvious that the objection to homosexuality was because it was considered an overly lustful choice.

Uh, that's not what the bible says. It was rejected because it was manifest grave sin. It was unnatural. None of this has changed.

There are plenty of natural desires that are considered sinful - just because someone has a genetic predisposition doesn't change that it is sin, Imran.

Homosexuals were cast along with adulterers because it was seen as a crime against lustfulness.

Nonsense. It was considered worse than adultery as a sin against Natural Law, that there was a particular order of sex with one man and one woman.

Once people realized homosexuality was genetic and that gay people actually wanted to get married and settled down

But they don't, Imran. That's the problem.

I simply cannot wrap my head around what is the sin involved here?

It's quite simple. The union is not the same. Why should we expect the same benefits from a union that is not the same. You're assuming that men and women are interchangeable parts.

What is the movement away from God here?

Choosing to indulge one's desires for sodomy.

It seems there is far more sinfulness and movement away from God from those condemning gays than those welcoming them with love.

Are you arguing there's no difference between a sinner and their sin - that someone cannot stop sinning?

As for the second part. I come back once again to slavery. If we can't be guided by the Spirit into God's constant revelation than what business did we have telling Christian leaders that they were wrong for interpreting slavery the way the Church had for hundreds of years?

The bible clearly speaks of slavery as an evil. Look at the Jewish people in Egypt.

The Bible isn't an authority unto itself - God is the sole authority and the Bible is only authoritative as it is used by God to carry out His mission. Contrary to what it appears Orthodox and Catholics believe, not all Protestants engage in Bibolatry.

Ok, then your argument is what? That you have a teaching magisterium? Apostolic succession?

We listen to the Spirit within community

Ahh, bull****. What you mean is where you think the bible is wrong, you correct it with the zeitgeist. Zeit-geist >>> Heilige Geist.

as the early Church did as Jesus gave the keys to bind and loosen things upon Earth

Jesus gave the keys to Apostle Peter, Imran. Where are your apostles? Where are your priests and bishops?

, and it through this community we determine what God is telling us.

What 'community'? Are you arguing there is an unbroken lineage from your present 'community' all the way back to Christ? I call bull****.

Rather than give up all authority to interpret what God wants for us to a hierarchy which may decide to sell us salvation or prevent us from reading Scripture in our vernacular tongues, we prefer the priesthood of all believers coming together to discuss and interpret and understand.

Indeed he has. And guess what Imran, it ain't your 'community'.

[Ben Kenobi]

And what is your point? Is the church of denmark obliged to follow Rome?

One would think they would be obliged to follow Christ, not men.

[C0ckney]

Have you stopped to consider what the word "bigot" actually means, or what you're using it to mean here? It's a loaded term, it works great for shutting down conversation, but what do you mean by it?

i'm happy with the dictionary definition here.

a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc. : a bigoted person; especially : a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group)

seems to describe what's going on here accurately.

Aaaand I disagree with basically all of the assumptions that whole paragraph is based on. Anyway, this is another way of saying, "we win; submit or perish." Which, I think, is what this is really about: punishing the losers. Nobody seriously thinks we're going to shift course back to where we were if the Judeo-Christian minority is permitted to dissent within a limited space. Or if they do, they're bonkers. Either way, freedom of conscience means very little if people can be legally compelled to go against it for arbitrary reasons. I'd be far more worried about that precedent--"you're free to follow the dictates of your conscience, except where it conflicts with what we presently consider proper modern thought"--than the sorts of exemptions I've described.

the essential question is whether you believe that people have a right to discriminate against people based on sexual orientation, and by analogy, race, gender, age etc. you say they do, as long as there is some justification contained in a holy book; i say they don't. i don't see how we're going to agree here, or indeed how much further we can go with it.

[Ben Kenobi]

a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group)

So anti-Christian posters like yourself are bigots?

Are gay people a race?

Either way, freedom of conscience means very little if people can be legally compelled to go against it for arbitrary reasons.

Freedom of conscience indeed means nothing if it means that one cannot oppose the prevailing sentiment. Popular ideas do not require freedom of conscience, it is the unpopular ones that do.

[N35t0r]

One would think they would be obliged to follow Christ, not men.

Men like the pope?

[rah]

So anti-Christian posters like yourself are bigots?

I think most of us are not ant-christian but rather anti BK and since you're not a "group of people" we don't qualify as bigots

[Ben Kenobi]

Men like the pope?

Last I checked Lutherans were protestants. Has that changed?

[Ben Kenobi]

I think most of us are not ant-christian but rather anti BK and since you're not a "group of people" we don't qualify as bigots

Mhmm, I think the foaming at the mouth whenever Catholicism is mentioned qualifies. I just happen to be the most obvious target of barbs aimed at the Catholic Church.

[rah]

Personally I love most of the Catholics I know. My wife, my daughter, my parents, my siblings, my nieces and nephews, my neighbors. It's just certain people that I detest. Like you.

As a target. try only, instead of obvious. You attract the hate because of what you express here. Don't ever think otherwise or you're just deluding yourself. Besides, most of us believe you take pride in attracting all the hate so you really shouldn't complain about it.

[N35t0r]

Last I checked Lutherans were protestants. Has that changed?

What do you think?

[rah]

He rarely does.

[Ben Kenobi]

As a target. try only, instead of obvious. You attract the hate because of what you express here. Don't ever think otherwise or you're just deluding yourself. Besides, most of us believe you take pride in attracting all the hate so you really shouldn't complain about it.

So it's because I defend what the church teaches that means people hate me? Textbook definition of bigotry.