congrats, well done
can you send me the 4000BC savegames for both the 396AD and this game, please
Deity, 7 civs, raging hoards, small map, playing as Americans.
Starting techs: Alphabet, Ceremonial Burial, Code of Laws.
Got off to a late start, didn't found my capitol until 3650BC,
but tipped a hut for Monarchy on the 3rd or 4th turn.
3650 MONARCHY. Washington founded.
475 NEWTON's U
1 AD Superhighways
240 Space Flight
320 Fusion Power. Launch 15-1-1-1-1-1
356 Arrive AC
The SSC ended up at size16, no ST, 10% lux rate.
Compared to my 396 game this one was 9 turns behind at Superhighways and Flight, 5 turns behind at Space Flight/Apollo and 1 turn behind at Fusion Power, but the ship launched immediately. Part of this milestone lag was illusory, caused by taking a different path through the tech tree (I had Laser before Flight). And the rest was caught up at the end with offshore freight deliveries to a foreign civ. These brought several chances for 2 techs/turn. And a lot of cash, which allowed me to build the 20 piece SS in 3 turns and launch upon getting Fusion Power.
Those endgame freights were great! For the cost of Darwin's Voyage, you get 7 freights and a boat to put 'em in. They can bring in 3 or more free techs and 5000+ cash.
I think I may be done with this early landing stuff for now. I'm sure it's possible to get there a little sooner (with another delivered freight or two, I could have bought more SS components), but this is enough. For those who want to give it a try, here's a couple of general thoughts.
First thing, you're not building a civilization - you're building a research machine and a launch pad. You need to acquire about 70-75 techs (and build a space ship) in 120 or so turns to land on AC before 500AD. So, don't build anything that isn't focused directly on those two goals. After you launch, if you still have cash, supported units, or extraneous city improvements, you've probably overbuilt and cost yourself time.
The style I played was "OCC+". An OCC-type science city with a minimum of helper cities (7 or 8) and a conciliatory, tech-gifting approach to the AI. But whatever style you try (and others may work better), think of the task this way: you have to compress your entire game into a very small number of turns. If your baseline game takes 200 turns from start to launch, you'll need to cut it almost in half. Determine what your milestones are, when you usually achieve them, and then figure out how many turns you'll have in which to reach each one. When I started playing with this, I worked backwards from a target launch date to calculate when I had to be where.
It might be possible to launch in 1 AD on Deity on a random map, but it would be a real squeeze. Maybe with caravan-rehoming and a massive offshore freight run at the end. Maybe. Anyway, I came up 16 turns short.
congrats, well done
can you send me the 4000BC savegames for both the 396AD and this game, please
Samson, was this with the infamous "Railroad Trick?"
"You're the biggest user of hindsight that I've ever known. Your favorite team, in any sport, is the one that just won. If you were a woman, you'd likely be a slut." - Slowwhand, to Imran
Eschewing silly games since December 4, 2005
I bet solo is the one who will be able to have a try at beating you with reasonable chances of success (though other brilliant OCCers like Paul or Ribannah might perhaps achieve something if they feel like it).
I would be happy and honoured if you accepted to read my thread named 'Napoleon, Alexandre and their friends' and decided to play one scenario with us.
Your razor edge way of thinking about this game might be of great interest for us.
Up to you. This is a free world.
Thanks for the offer and the congrats. I have read your scenario threads with interest and may well play one next.
I used all the tricks of trade in this one:
opening - work the specials for 2 and 3 turn advances.
midgame - trade routes with road and rail.
endgame - overseas freights for high cash/research bonuses.
Thanks. If you, or someone else, can set up a link for others to download the save from this thread I'd appreciate it.
Nice going, samson! Aren't 2 discoveries a turn when you can get them a real rush! After studying your detailed log of the 396 game, I can see there isn't too much more time that can be saved. Of course I'm happy to see how those freights (and their payoffs) allowed you to cut off a few more years in this game! I used a similar timetable with my 14 BC game in OCC, working backwards from that date and establishing deadlines for certain things to be accomplished. This really focused me on squeezing the most out of each turn early in the game when there's a tendency to relax.
Looks like small map is the way to go, too. I'm in the middle of a game with a normal-sized random map. I started with a lot of free techs, including trade, which gave me an early edge, but my SSC is mediocre with only 3 trade specials (gold,wine,silk), and the AI are too far from it (20+ squares away) to make a railway connection. I have another city (1 gold, 2 whales) near the AI, that I built up to size 12 quickly with a harbor, which is only 5 squares away from an AI city, which I'm trying to connect to by rail, but doing this has slowed my research and I may not even make it to AC by 1000 AD! Right now I'm at 200 AD at about the same tech pace as my 776 game, but without much chance of its great late-game rehoming trade, so we'll wait and see what happens.
This game has no chance to challenge your record, but I have learned a few more new things from playing it so far that I will share when it is completed. Again, terrific result! I would like to try a game from your save, when it becomes available, but don't expect to do any better than you. The process leading to your result has been very enjoyable and enlightening.
Once again thanks for your gracious comments.
Yes, those offshore freights are great late game boosters. Even helper city freights (using the SSC specials) brought in good amounts of gold and beakers. Another thing about freights - the max bonus payout is 2/3 of the current advance's beaker cost. This is independent of map size, so freights work just as well, if not better, on medium maps for bringing in those "doubles". And more money, too.
Small map generating tips. "New game" generated small maps have very rough terrain, lots of specials (gold!) but little grass or plains. If you use "Customize World" and select 3 Billion Years, you get a bit more plains. 3 Billion Years plus Wet gives more grass.
Since you're interested in trying this one out, I'll forego posting a detailed log or giving away too many clues until you've had a chance to try it out. Hopefully, SG or someone will be along soon and offer to provide a link, or tell me how to do it.
I'm interested in seeing your current game log. Is this the one where you tried the 2 city trick and got early nomads?
Yes, many early nomads. A new experience for me! The most frequent hut result (especially from hills), as long as no other settlers were around. I deliberately used all new nomads to found new cities quickly, deferring new huts until no settlers were present. One game proves nothing, but in all previous ones I've always saved nomads as shieldless and foodless workers, and never got more than 1 or 2 a game.
If this is generally repeatable, the plusses are huge. Nomads are far better than advanced tribes and save the trouble of building expensive early settlers to found new cities.
The only drawback, is that city developments such as roads and irrigation must be deferred, but if good cities can be located having a lot of ocean, a quick harbor gives great early food and trade.
Thanks for your tips on small maps. I may try a few of my own that way. I sort of like the idea of landing before 1000 AD without making ANY changes to the standard settings and want to try and do that first, so feel free to post your detailed log, as I will promise not to consult it much later when I switch over to small map games. I'm sure others would like to see it though, and benefit from its comments and details. For me, being the record setter is not important. What I really enjoyed was the cooperative process that produced so many insights culminating in your 356 game. Kudos to all involved!
Well said. I, too, enjoyed the discoveries we made. But what do you think? Is a 1 AD launch date achievable? If not, what is the earliest possible Deity landing?
The nomad effect is repeatable, in testing and in actual games. And it is, I feel, an enormous edge. 3, 4, or 5 early cities, situated near trade specials, can pump out the early techs very quickly. 2 or 3 turns each for the first 5 or 6 techs can get you to Monarchy and then to Republic quite fast. And with Republic, the trade/science jumps up again. Saving a turn or two on those early techs is the same as getting 2 techs/turn in the endgame.
My testing shows the absence of a nomad to be the key to getting new ones. Owned settlers don't matter, I think. But even if they do, the benefits of early well-placed cities far outweigh those of land improvements in the first millennium.
I don't develop the helper cities at all, and in the SSC I'll only irrigate a square or two until I get Bridge Building and can start to road the river squares for extra trade.
You can only start building spaceship parts in 1 AD. So a 1 AD launch date is not achievable.Originally posted by samson
Is a 1 AD launch date achievable? If not, what is the earliest possible Deity landing?
But seriously, with some more refining of your playing style and some luck, I think you could come very close.
samson -- you can simply attach the save file to any post in this thread and we can dl from there - I asked markG to extend the original type list to include things like .sav files and he kindly complied ...
In that case, theoretically ... with 10 cities and Apollo built before 1AD and enough cash and caravans on hand, one could build a 20 piece SS in two turns and launch in 40 AD for an arrival on AC in 76 AD. Or with a bit more cash and a couple of settlers used to found cities in 1AD, one could build a 15-3-3-1-1-1 ship and land in 55 AD. Hmmm.
So, if 1AD is the earliest you can build SS parts, how did you guys land a ship in 6AD in that MP game?
Thanks. I should have read the Help.
Samson, in MP you can change production during the other players' turns. So, as soon as the year 1 AD started for the first player, the spaceship builder could change his production to spaceship parts and have the ship built in 1 AD. This can of course not be done in SP.
Thank, Paul. I should have known that.
So, the earliest non-scenario landing date in SP, under any level of play, with the fastest ship would be 26AD.
The absence of nomads is probably the key in getting others, but I like getting them so much early in the game, I was taking no chances that city-built settlers would spoil this!
I finished that game where I was getting so many of them. Arriving in 956 AD, I had the dubious distinction of having almost tripled your latest landing date! Extra techs at that start did not make up for a relatively poor map, but I held my own until the higher cost of research on a medium map took its toll! Still this is my first pre-1000 AD landing without rehoming using all standard settings, so I am happy enough.
I started the game emulating your style of play, but then switched to some of my own ideas, after which I promptly fell behind! I will post a detailed log and description of the game here when it is ready, and would be curious how you would do with the same map and start, if you would care to give it a try.
I will try to set up an attachment here:
Looks like it worked. In answer to your question of a pre-1AD launch, it must be possible, I think, and the way to do it is to play normally until you have built Apollo. Then save your game as a scenario, and continue to completion, since parts will now be available. But you said enough of early landings! Why then, these questions about even earlier ones?
Last edited by solo; June 11, 2001 at 12:41.
956 AD is an excellent result on a medium map. How many huts did you pop? Getting lots of nomads probably cut down on the number of techs from huts, which was the factor on medium maps we considered to balance the small map's lower research cost. I probably won't have time to try your map soon, but I am very interested in seeing your log and will comment on it.
After my last game, I felt a bit of early landing burnout. But I'm starting to recover and may take another shot at it, if I get a good start. I was interested in the theoretically earliest landing date for a non-scenario game. I wanted to know how much more room for improvement there is.
samson, to answer your questions first:
1) In this game I got 4 techs from huts and traded with the AI for 8 others.
2) I think I popped about 21 huts in all, getting 5 nomad results during the game.
3) I welcome your comments and suggestions about the strategies used in this game.
Now on to the game:
I’ve had trouble finding a good start for an early landing attempt, using all standard options. Whenever I got a start with 4 or more starting techs, with 2 or more Monarchy pre-requisites, I would try out the game. After some early exploration, most starts failed to produce a 4 trade special SSC site, and in several with promising SSC sites, early adverse luck ruined the chances of a good game. In one situation I had about everything on my wish list to start with except for that ******* pond in the middle of an ideal SSC site (2 gold, wheat, whale).
Finally, one start had enough promising things about it to continue the game. On the plus side, this game had:
1) 7 starting techs: Alphabet, Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial, Code of Laws, Currency, Masonry, and Trade.
2) An adequate, nearby SSC site with 3 trade specials and some rivers.
3) Early contact and an alliance with the purple (key) civilization.
4) Fortunate early hut results, including several nomads and one advanced tribe. In 2 previous games with similar starting prospects, I was plagued by barbarians and unwanted techs from the earliest huts.
5) Two excellent city sites were found away from the core group of cities, plus a third very good one.
On the minus side:
1) There was not any chance for a railroad from the SSC to the nearest AI city, and thus no chance for its added continuing trade bonus.
2) Outside of the SSC, there were a lack of trade specials available for the helper cities. The only site that had 2 good ones of its own was beset by poor terrain which hampered growth.
3) Except for the key civ, the AI were hard to locate and get to. This made tribute hard to get and really hampered trade. Only 25 cargos were delivered during the game and payoffs were disappointing, yielding a low average of 66 gold (and beakers) per turn during trade years, as compared to a 200 average in my 1056 game and a 400 average in the 776 rehoming game.
4) The higher cost of research on a medium map is too much of a handicap, when compared to small maps, and research speed is the name of the game for early landings. The benefits of a medium map are not enough compensation.
5) The lack of barbarian leader opportunities (zero) made a difficult gold situation even worse, especially early in the game where a timely infusion of 150 gold can make a huge difference.
The game log and comments follow in the next thread.
Civ 2.42, deity, 7 civs, raging, medium map and all other settings were standard. I played as the Americans starting with 7 free techs: Alphabet, Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial, Code of Laws, Currency, Masonry, and Trade. The arrival date on Alpha Centauri was 956 AD.
Abbreviations used in the log:
W - Washington
NY - New York
P - Philadelphia
BOS - Boston
C - Chicago
SF - San Francisco
BUF - Buffalo
SL - Saint Louis
S - Sioux
G - Germans
R - Russians
E - Egyptians
C - Carthaginians
B - Babylonians
Numbers in parentheses after techs and key civ trades are:
b - beakers needed for the next advance
s - current beaker output by all cities
w - current beaker output by Washington (usually omitted)
% - current science rate setting
3950 hut: horseman
3900 hut: horseman
3850 Washington, New York, hut(hill): nomads
Washington was my SSC site and was located on rivered grass. It also had 1 gold, 1 wine, 1 silk, 1 game, 1 grass, 5 rivered grass, 4 plains, 1 rivered plain, 1 ocean, 3 hills, and 1 forest. The rivers made up for a lacking 4th trade special. This game I located and founded my SSC very early and put more emphasis on its early growth and this really paid off.
New York was located on grass and had 1 whale, 1 fish, 8 ocean, 4 plains, 1 swamp, 1 grass and 2 hills. It grew well but did not have good trade specials.
3700 Boston, hut(hill): nomads
Boston was located on rivered grass and overlapped Washington’s silk. It also had 3 rivered grass, 1 grass, 1 rivered plain, 2 plains, 2 ocean, 1 coal, 1 swamp, and 1 hill. Rivers helped, but the only trade special was shared with Washington.
Nothing could have been better than getting 2 nomads right after founding Washington and New York. I always seem to get great beginner’s luck when trying something new. Founding cities quickly with NON-settlers pays off in making more available. The best city sites may not be quickly found, but any free city so early in the game is a great boost.
3650 Monarchy (22b, 11s, 70%), revolution, government to Monarchy
3600 Philadelphia; NY: warrior; hut: advanced tribe, Atlanta
Philadelphia was located on grass and had 9 grass, 4 forest, 5 ocean, 1 swamp and 1 hill. It grew well but did not have any specials.
Atlanta was in a horrible location, but produced a free settler later when it was disbanded.
No doubt about it, this was a great start, with 4 good cities and Monarchy by 3650, but a start like this is almost required for an early landing. Many other previous starts went poorly and had to be discarded despite very promising setups.
3550 Map Making (33b, 11s, 70%)
3500 BOS: warrior
3450 Writing (48b, 10s, 70%)
I set Washington for maximum growth. (the reason for 10s)
3350 W: size 2
3300 NY: size 2
3200 BOS: size 2; Sioux: trade for mysticism, give tech, share maps, alliance (55b)
Another lucky break, as I meet and get and alliance with the purple civ, and can cut beaker costs immediately. While trading, I noticed they also had Warrior Code, Horseback Riding, and The Wheel, but decided to defer trading for these until they were needed. This facilitates early research, but a big drawback is that I could not ask for any gifts for fear of being presented with Warrior Code. During the early part of this game I was really desperate for more gold. All potential sources of income dried up, as I did not have any chances for barbarian leaders, either. Still, all things considered, it was still a terrific start.
3150 P: diplomat
3100 Literacy (66b, 13s, 70%); NY: trireme; P: size 2
3050 hut(jungle): nomads
Of course, the first thing found on a neighboring continent was another hut with nomads! Normally, I explore with two triremes as early as possible, but my home continent was huge and already being investigated by land, so I only built one trireme early on.
3000 W: temple; hut: barbarians
2950 Atlanta: settlers (disbands city)
2900 BOS: temple; hut: 50g
Gold was so scarce and welcome that 50 felt more like 500!
2850 P: diplomat; Republic (84b, 20s, 70%), revolution, government to Republic; S: give tech, maps;
Russians: peace, give tech, share maps
The Russians wanted to trade Polytheism. No thanks!
samson is a real fan of Republic as early as possible, with great results to show for this policy, so I adopted it. Normally, I like to stay in Monarchy until my cities are all size 3 and ready to celebrate. Republic is ill-suited for small cities, and you can say goodbye to demanding tribute, normally a good source of gold early in the game. I was extremely strapped for gold during early Republic, and had to set taxes at 10% just to keep out of debt. Even though early Republic speeds up research considerably, it slows down growth and production, and in retrospect, I believe I would have been better off waiting a bit to switch to Republic.
Chicago was located on plains and shared a gold special with Washington. It also had 1 wine, 1 silk, 1 grass, 2 ocean, 5 plains, 2 mountains, 2 hills, 1 forest and 3 tundra. Great trade specials, but a lousy site for growth. It reached size 3, but remained there the rest of the game. There was not enough time nor resources to spare to promote its further growth, which was too bad. All it did was make caravans at a mighty pace of 3 shields per turn and act as a magnet for the eternal barbarian archer, who appeared later on.
2750 Germans: peace, give tech, share maps
2700 San Francisco
San Francisco became a great city and was located on a forest (irrigated to plains before founding) and it had 2 whales, 1 gold, 4 grass, 1 desert, 2 forests, 7 ocean, 2 hills and 1 swamp. It was also located on an isthmus and provided a shortcut for ships to get to the Russian and Egyptian cities. Being only 6 squares away from a Russian city, I decided to attempt a railroad connection and develop SF into a Super Trade City of sorts. It turns out there was not enough time to make this idea pay off. The Russians surrounded and trapped my road and railroad workers, and too many resources were wasted in bribes and other efforts at developing this city’s great potential. By the time the railroad was ready, the game was almost over, and all freights were needed for Apollo and my spaceship. After the game was over, I went back to a previous save just to try out this magnificent railroad and it didn’t work, no matter where I put additional railroads! All that effort must have added at least 5 more turns to the length of the game, instead of helping to shorten it.
2650 Philosophy, Math (108b, 26s, 70%); hut: 50g
2600 hut: archer
2550 NY: temple; W: silk; hut: barbarians; C: warrior
2500 hut(hill): nomads
2450 University (120b, 30s, 70%); hut: elephant;
2400 R: give tech, share maps
2350 hut: Construction (132b, 36s, 70%)
2300 hut: 100g; hut: barbarians
2250 BOS: dye; W: wool; Banking (180b, 24s, 70%)
2200 C: temple
2150 SF: temple, silk(d) to Little Bighorn, 180g
Being extremely starved for gold, that 180 was really welcomed, but quickly spent.
2100 P: temple; Medicine (195b, 29s, 70%)
2050 hut: Pottery (210b)
2000 BOS: hides; hut: Seafaring (255b)
Pottery and possibly Seafaring, were probably known already by one or more AI, and could have been traded for. A good reason not to defer tech trades is to prevent unwanted techs from huts, but now that I had Pottery, it got me thinking how crummy my little cities were doing under Republic, and how most were size 3 and ready to grow. Washington was just about to finish its third caravan, and getting ready to make a library. I was about to learn Astronomy and had accumulated 3 caravans towards Copernicus already, faithfully following samson’s early science formula, and then I get Pottery from a hut! Hmmm.
I reasoned thus: Currently, Washington was putting out 14 science. A library would boost this to 21 and Copernicus would double this to 42, which with the other cities would yield a total of about 60 science when Copernicus was ready. I figured that if I abandoned the pure science approach and quickly doubled the size of each city, my science would have been just as much and I’d also have bigger cities all around to boot. Since 4 caravans were all that were needed for Hanging Gardens, and they were handy, I went for early growth and decided to defer science improvements and wonders in Washington. I also needed settlers, and I thought that celebrating cities one size too high might be a good idea too, so that when the settlers were built, each city could back down 1 citizen to the right level for happiness. All and all, in seemed like a good plan, but in retrospect I believe I failed to account for the fact that a library and Copernicus HAD to be built sooner or later, while HG was just an optional wonder and that time was too limited to do both. The big trade payoffs I was expecting from bigger cities never became a factor later in this game, partly do to the lack of trade specials outside of my SSC. It would be an interesting experiment to go back and replay the game from this point, concentrating just on science, and compare outcomes. I might end up trying this at some time.
1950 W: hides
At this time a barbarian archer invaded near Chicago and I killed it with my horseman. To no avail, because every 5 turns or so he was reincarnated and came back to the same spot next to my horseman, just to be trampled to death, over and over. No leaders ever came along with this eternal archer, but no leadership ability was needed to think up or organize these senseless repeated missions. I will not note each repetition of this silly charade.
1900 W: Hanging Gardens, we love begins
Carthaginians: peace, give tech, share maps
1850 W: size 5
1800 NY: salt; hut: 50g; W: size 6; BOS,P,NY: size 4
1750 Astronomy (272b, 23s, 30%); W: size 7; BOS,NY: size 5; Buffalo
Buffalo was one of those fine island cities located on a plain with 1 whale, 1 fish, 1 wine, 1 pheasant, 7 ocean, 1 swamp, 2 plains, 1 grass, 2 mountains, 2 hills and 1 forest. It grew very quickly and had three trade specials and was well located in the center of the map. Being an island, every trade it made had to be overseas, guaranteeing that bonus.
1700 W: size 8; B,NY: size 6; we love ends
S: give tech, share maps (240b)
My cities were now producing 55 science at 70%, about the same as a library and Copernicus would have contributed by now.
1550 hut: Theory of Gravity (270b)
R: trade for The Wheel, give tech, share maps
1500 BOS: settlers
1450 C: hides; Engineering (285b, 52s, 70%)
1400 SF: we love; P: settlers
1350 W: library; SF: size 4
1250 Sanitation (480b);
R: trade for Polytheism, share maps
C: trade for Iron Working, Warrior Code, share maps
S: trade for Horseback Riding, give tech, maps, 200g gift (576b)
Now that the 20th tech had been researched, I trade for all available techs so that I can finally start asking the Sioux for gifts. I was still very strapped for gold, and had not been able to set taxes to zero as I usually do to favor science. This is where a medium map starts to really take its toll. That was a 200 beaker jump between techs, and the rest now come at a premium, making it hard to justify this map size.
1200 BUF: temple; SF: copper, we love; P: we love;
hut: elephant; salt(d) to Carthage, 352g
1150 NY: settlers
1100 BUF: hides; P: size 4; SF: size 6; S: 50g gift
1050 C: silk; P: dye, we love; NY: harbor, we love; W: wool; SF: size 7
1000 BOS: gems; Chemistry (600b, 72s, 70%);
Egyptians: peace, give tech, share maps;
S: trade for Invention
875 W: coal; Babylonians: peace, give tech, share maps
The awkward starting placement means I was late getting to meet all the AI. The Babylonians were the last to be found and it took a long time into the game to do it. A small map also has the advantage of earlier contact with all the AI.
850 SF: settlers; hides(d) to Babylon, 72g
This trade was not worth the effort. It is better keeping caravans at home to build wonders where they are worth the equivalent of 200 gold. In my opinion, any trade made for less than 200 gold is not worth the effort. None of the AI amounted to much during this game, and none of their cities became good targets for trade because of this. Most payoffs during the game were quite disappointing.
825 Bridge Building (648b, 77s, 70%)
775 hut: nomads; hut: 25g; S: 50g gift
750 C: coal
725 BUF: silk; P: hides; BOS: gold; NY: silk; W: silver
700 hut: elephant; hut: legion; R: give tech, maps
675 S: join them vs. the Germans; St. Louis
St. Louis was my eighth and last city and was located on grass and had 1 whale, 1 fish, 1 furs, 2 grass, 7 ocean, 3 forests, and 2 plains. Another fast grower with decent trade potential. St. Louis and Buffalo, both located closer to most of the AI than my other cities, were well placed for two reasons:
1) Ships could carry cargos for trade no matter which way they traveled, which was more efficient.
2) When it came time to switch to Democracy, triremes stopped at both places to be upgraded to galleons, making Leonardo’s unnecessary.
650 SF: beads; Monotheism (672b, 98s, 80%)
Now that I was committed to fast city growth and the development of San Francisco as a SRC (Super Railroad City), I wanted Michaelangelo’s.
625 R: give tech, maps; S: give tech, 50g; hut: barbarians
copper(d) to Malaca, 168g
600 SL: temple
575 C: wool; W: food; hut: 50g
550 W: Michaelangelo’s Chapel
500 W: aqueduct, size 9; BUF,P: size 5; BOS,NY: size 6; SF: size 7
475 W: size 10; BUF,P: size 6; BOS,NY: size 7; SF: size 8
450 Gunpowder (696b, 66s, 40%); BUF: beads, size 7; SF: aqueduct, size 9; BOS: coal; NY: silk, size 8;
W: size 11; P: size 7
425 P: dye; W: size 12; NY: size 8; SF: size 10;
silk(d) to Babylon, 198g
400 SF: colosseum; W: marketplace; S: give tech (696b); R: give tech, maps
375 W: Copernicus’s Observatory, (696b, 200s, 126w, 80%)
350 Explosives (720b, 200s, 80%)
325 C: coal
275 BOS: gems; Economics (806b, 197s, 80%); S: give tech (744b)
250 P: dye; W: gold
225 BUF: copper; SF: salt; NY: beads
200 W: Colossus, (744b, 245s, 168w, 80%)
175 Navigation (832b, 247s, 80%)
150 R: give tech, maps; S: give tech, 50g (768b)
125 SL: dye
100 BOS: gems
75 SF: food; Physics (792b, 249s, 80%)
50 C: coal; P: dye; W: gold; beads(d) to Panoramus, 236g
Now that I had a group of caravans to deliver, the Navigation-Invention pair cuts the amount of the payoffs. The unsuitability of this map for profitable trade was a big factor in slowing things down in this game.
25 Atomic Theory (844b, 257s, 80%); S: give tech, 50g (816b)
copper(d) to Babylon, 148g
By the end of the BC years, I have acquired 40 techs, which is not too bad, since Washington still lacks a university, something I’ve was meaning to build 20 turns ago, but had to put off until now.
AD years continuje in the next thread
1 SF: library; W: university; silver(d) to Babylon, 544g
20 Magnetism (840b, 357s, 80%); BUF: coal; NY: gems
40 SF: marketplace; W: sewer system
60 SL: beads; SF: we love; BOS: gold;
W: Shakespeare’s Theater; Metallurgy (864b, 228s, 50%)
80 W: size 13; SF: size 11; SL: size 5
100 P: dye; SL: galleon; BUF: galleon; W: size 14
120 SF: engineers; C: coal; W: size 15
140 Democracy (888b, 374s, 70%), revolution, government to Democracy; W: size 16; S: 100g
160 W: coal, size 17
180 NY: silver; W: size 18
200 BOS: coal; Electricity (912b, 378s, 70%); beads(d) to Babylon, 228g
220 W: gold; W: size 20
240 P: wool; Steam Engine (1014b, 463s, 80%); W: size 21
S: give tech, 50g (936b)
260 SL: food; BUF: food; W: bank, size 22, we love ends
280 C: food; W: Sir Isaac Newton’s College; SF: musketeer;
Railroad (960b, 751s, 582w, 100%); E: give tech, share maps
Now the SSC was full-sized and all scientific improvements were in place. With the discovery of Railroad, the project of connecting San Francisco to St. Petersburg continues.
300 NY: engineers; coal(d) to Thebes, 174g
320 SF: courthouse; Feudalism (1066b, 382s, 50%); BOS: coal; S: give tech (984b); C&R: give tech, share maps
340 Industrialization (1092b, 703s, 90%); S: give tech, 50g (1008b)
360 SF: university; W: coal; salt(d) to Memphis, 115g
380 Corporation (1032b, 502s, 60%); BUF: food; P: dye
400 Refining (1144b, 744s, 90%); S: give tech (1056b)
420 SL: gems; bead(d) to Thebes, 128g; R: give tech, maps
440 C: coal; Steel (1170b, 636s, 70%); W: dye
460 BOS: gold; Combustion (1196b, 747b, 90%)
480 SF: gold; NY: silver
500 C: give tech, share maps; W: gold; Automobile (1222b, 783s, 90%); dye(d) to Moscow, 428g
520 SF: superhighways; Electronics (1296b, 778s, 90%); S: give tech, 150g (1152b); R: give tech, share maps;
dye(d) to Memphis, 147g
540 BUF: coal; P: hides; W: superhighways; Chivalry (1176b, 1302s, 1044w, 100%)
Now with superhighways in Washington, 1-turn advances by science alone were available for a few turns. San Francisco was producing 136 beakers as the next best city. I had a chance for 2 advances in one turn, but this would have used a lot of freights at once, which were better used to guarantee 1-turn advances once beakers exceeded science.
560 Leadership (1300b, 1302s, 100%); S: give tech (1200b)
580 SL: salt; BO: spice; Mass Production (1326b, 1336s, 100%)
All of Washington’s non-trade workers converted to Einstein’s gave peak beakers for the final 1-turn advance using city science alone.
600 C: wool; Nuclear Fission (1352b, 1233s, 100%); R&C: give tech, share maps; S: trade for Conscription, give tech (1378b);
gems(d) to Cedar Creek, 162g
620 E: give tech, share maps; NY: cloth; W: oil; Nuclear Power (1404b, 1189s, 90%); silver(d) to Leptis Parva, 215g
640 Laser (14309b, 994s, 80%); coal(d) to Babylon, 953g; coal(d) to Babylon, 274g
Babylon wanted coal! Good, because no one else did.
660 W: stock exchange; Tactics (1512b, 1115s, 90%); S: give tech (1344b); C: embassy;
gold(d) to Wounded Knee, 722g
The Carthaginians started building Darwin‘s, so I gave them an embassy to monitor what they were doing.
680 SL: food; SF: food; C: spice; P: oil; BOS: silk; NY: food, Flight (1368b, 605s, 60%)
700 BUF: oil; Machine Tools (1508b, 911s, 90%); S: give tech (1392b); R&C: give tech, share maps
720 W: dye; dye(d) to Ur, 216g
740 Radio (1534b, 807s, 80%); C: give tech
Carthage was about to build Darwin’s so I gave it the pre-requisites for Advanced Flight and Miniaturization, two techs I still needed. I had picked Miniaturization to study myself, since the AI love Advanced Flight so much, and this idea worked. The following turn Carthage learned Advanced Flight and Amphibious Warfare! Not bad, considering that they were still under Despotism!
760 SF: food; C: food; P: hides; NY: food; Miniaturization (1586b, 923s, 90%); C: trade for Advanced Flight;
S: give tech (1464b), oil(d) to SF, 545g
All things considered, this was a successful turn!
780 W: food; Computers (1488b, 1004s, 100%); dye(d) to Moscow, 492g
800 SL: food; BUF: spice; SF: gems; C: food; P: hides; BOS: dye; NY: food; Rocketry (1638b, 935s, 100%);
gold(d) to Heliopolis, 220g; coal(d) to Kiev, 144g; S: give tech, 100g (1512b)
820 W: research lab; Space Flight (1536b, 788s, 70%)
840 SL: food; BUF: food; SF: food; C: coal; P: hides; BOS: spice; NY: dye; W: Apollo Program
860 SL: S#1; BUF: S#2; SF: S#3; W: S#4; Plastics (1716b, 1284s, 100%); S: give tech (1584b);
silk(d) to Babylon, 304g
880 SL: S#5; BUF: S#6; SF: S#7; C: wool; P: wool; BOS: dye; NY: food; W: s#8; Superconductor (1742b, 811s, 60%);
S: give tech, 100g (1608b)
900 SL: S#9; BUF: S#10; SF: M#1; C: S#11; P: S#12; BOS: S#13; NY: S#14
920 R: sneak attack!; SL: C#1; BUF: C#2; SF: M#2; BOS: S#15; W: M#3, Fusion Power; Launch 15-1-1-1-1-1
922 Russians capture San Francisco!
I did not even get to try out my railroad while waiting for the space ship to arrive! Unused, virgin tracks left for those Russian peasants to roll their hay wagons along!
956 Arrival on Alpha Centauri.
I will add another thread later with some conclusions I’ve come to after playing this game.
An impressive log and commentary, Solo.
This is just a quick note to let you know I'm digesting it off-line and will respond later.
Okay, I've read over your log and do have a some comments for you.
Take them with as many grains of salt as you like.
I don't think this game proves that a medium map can not be competitive with a small map in the race for early landing. The minimum multiplier for the cost of researching the "20+" techs is 19X on small and 24X on medium (about 25% higher). This means you pay 100 more beakers for tech#20, 200 more beakers for tech#40, 300 more beakers for tech#60 and about 10,000 more beakers total for techs 20-70. In theory, this would handicap the medium map by about 20 game turns (400 years) in a space race.
However, in both my pre-400AD games with railroaded trade routes to a foreign city, I was getting 1 turn advances with a science rate of 60-70%. At 80-90% science, those games could easily have paid the medium map cost and still have achieved a 1 tech/turn rate. While it may be less likely to make a rail connection with a foreign civ on a medium map, it's certainly not impossible. I did it in that Deity+5 OCC game I posted recently.
Finding good starts.
In my opinion, you're too strict with your "all standard options" approach. From what I've been able to gather about the way the game generates maps, "New Game" and "Customize World" both create maps from the same universe; the same set of possibilities. When "New Game" is selected, I believe the program chooses (probably using a weighted scale) values for the same 5 parameters that "Customize World" offers and then generates a map from them using the same routine.
Since we are selecting only those starts to play which meet certain criteria for a fast start and possible early landing, using "Customize World" to generate a playable game from a smaller subset of all possible maps, saves a lot of time. If a good early landing start occurs only once out of a 1000 starts, "CW" may be able to weed out 800 out of the unsuitable starts and save you some time and frustration. Just a suggestion.
7 starting techs is a big plus. Having 4 critical techs beyond the 3 Monarchy pre-reqs is probably worth about 12 game turns, maybe more. In combination with a good nearby SSC site, this start definitely qualifies as "great". Add in some early nomads and you were really rolling straight out of the gate.
3 trade specials isn't bad for an SSC. Gold, wine, and rivered silk provide 14 arrows. In my last two games, I had 2 gold and a silk to start (15 arrows) and was able to get a 4th special only later in the game by mining grass or plains. I'm definitely considering trying a game using this start.
Science vs. Growth
Early Republic is tough to expand in, as you found. You pretty much have to build a temple first thing, unless the city has gold and can grow to size 2 while keeping peace with the 20% lux rate the SSC neeeds. My early game focus is not growth or expansion, it's research. The idea is that every turn you save on researching the first 20 techs, is the same as getting 2 techs per turn in the end game. Or put another way, every lost chance to save a turn must be made up at the end when options have narrowed as time runs out.
I think your "growth" approach for the helper cities cost you opportunities in this game. It led to your choice of HG and MIKE's as your first wonders. The flaw in your reasoning (in my opinion anyway) in picking HG over COPERNICUS early is this: Every future trade arrow/beaker in the SSC gets multiplied by 4X and later 6X by library/Copes/university and then the INU. Every trade arrow in a helper city is just 1 beaker, now and forever. Though it seemed like you were getting equal value in terms of trade/science, they are not equivalent when measured over the course of the game.
I prefer helper cities in locations where they WON'T grow beyond size 3. A rivered grass square with access to a Silk and 2 other forest squares is great. 7 shields, 5 arrows, and a stable pop, building caravans for the rest of the game. Helpers working Gold is good, too, early. But less important mid-game and later. Buffalo, peat, iron -- high shield specials that don't required mining are good. I think expansion (number of cities) is probably more important than growth. It takes less infrastructure and pulls less attention away from the SSC's development. The big lesson for me in my attempt to use the STC idea was just how difficult it is to develop even 2 big cities in the time frame of an early landing game.
Growth vs. Expansion vs. Science is a crucial trade-off in these games. I probably stop expanding too soon. So, any attempt to push in another direction is laudable, and the lessons learned of value.
As usual, your game had a strong ending. Even if 25 delivered freights sounds small to you, it's probably 3 times what I got in my 356 game, and that was the most trading I ever did.
Getting railroad routes with a foreign city -- an idea.
Thinking about your "reincarnating archer", it occurs to me that one could build a bait city near the SSC, connect it by rail, and leave it undefended. Then wait for some Barbarian pirates to land and occupy it. After that, run in 3 freights and BOOM! the Memphis Effect is on. This could also work with a nearby AI civ that you goad into attacking you, too. Then quickly pacify them with a load of techs. Of course, while the city is just sitting there it can be knocking out caravans for you.
Might have more comments later. Again, good game and a wonderful log.
And don't take my criticisms as a slur on your play or style. It isn't meant that way at all.
Another thing. You mentioned having problems getting gifts from allies who have techs you don't want.
What seems to work for me is asking for gifts on the turn I discovery a new tech. This causes them to offer a trade. Then when I refuse to trade and ask them for a gift, I get money instead of WC or whatever I don't want. Of course, this only works if they have enough money to give, so an embassy is needed to check their cash before asking.
A slur on my style? No way! This is great stuff, and I will print it out and use your insights to make improvements to my game! I cab only appreciate the time, effort and thought that went into your analysis of the game. Thanks!
After studying this, I will reply, commenting on each thing you mentioned. After a brief read, I do disagree with a few of your points, though for the most part I am saying "yes, that's right!"
I have had time to think over your comments and will respond to your ideas now.
When I first got the idea of trying pre-1000 AD landings, I felt that the major key to success was finding a way to obtain 1-turn advances after superhighways and sustaining this pace for the rest of the game. Earlier experience with OCC told me that one city could not provide enough science to do this unless the starting location were ideal, or very close to it. So I came up with the helper city approach with the thought that additional helper science would make up the difference, while their caravan output would provide additional opportunities for 2 advances per turn. This approach has been successful, but was rendered obsolete by your method of using the trade bonus from a railroad to the SSC, which is much more time-efficient.
In my 956 game, I only abandoned your early science approach, because I believed it required the SSC-railroad to achieve enough science, and that this possibility did not exist. I felt early expansion was my next best alternative, and was curious about how quickly I could develop the potential of my STC, San Francisco. I was also curious about the added benefits of founding my SSC first. Your idea of a “bait” city simply did not occur to me, which is a great idea. You are always finding the better mousetrap!
Map size: I will have to try a game or two on a small map before making up my mind, although I now believe small is better. I would also like to replay my 956 game at the point where I decided on HG, going for Copernicus instead, just to see how this works out on a medium map, and to gain some experience doing it this way.
Good starts: Even with Customize World, I doubt that SSC sites as good as the ones you were finding on small maps are easily obtainable on medium ones. I like to complain, and was just a little envious of these great sites you were getting. When analyzed, though, the SSC site I had in this game was even better. (Throw in the 4 additional free techs at the start, and I believe you won’t be able to resist giving it a try yourself!) Consider its peak science output:
gold - 126 beakers
silk, wine - 102 each
ocean, plains, grass - 48 each
7 rivered plains/grass - 72 each
The rivers added 24 beakers each, for a total of 168 additional beakers, which is better than having another gold special minus any rivers! (Does this change your mind a bit about the value of rivers?) So I agree it’s a great SSC site, but what I disliked most was the poor map location (being off to one side) and the lack of trade specials for helper cities. I can not agree more that every turn in the game is precious, and sometimes the presence of one or two more trade specials among helpers can add just enough arrows to get those early game advances a turn sooner.
I’ve got to agree with most of your analysis, though. I think you under-estimate the value of vigorous trade, and hope to have an opportunity to prove this in a future game! Until then, I can’t argue with your results, and the innovations and skill responsible for them!
Using your bait idea, I did a little checking into the effectiveness of a railroad from my SSC to Chicago (now barbarian). Before the railroad, continuing bonuses were 21 each, afterwards 32. This would have added 33 trade to my total, for an additional 98 beakers. This means at the time right after superhighways, I would have had 1170 beakers at 100% science, instead of the 972 as in the actual game. At 100% science this was barely enough to sustain one or two more turns of 1-turn advances. This tells me that the SSC site has to be much better (or more developed) than mine was in this game for the Memphis effect to be as successful on a medium map.
Another way of putting it is that to learn my 55th tech, (the one following automobile) I needed 1152 beakers, even with that 7 free tech head start. In your 396 game, (where I believe you started with 3 free techs), you needed only 988 beakers, with 1428 science to work with, quite a bit more than I might have had with the railroad bonus.
More evidence that a small map is the best way to go, and that even there, an average SSC site may not be enough to do the job. What do you think?
Last edited by solo; June 15, 2001 at 22:36.
samson and solo
It may be urban myth, but I have the impression that trade with an AI civ is better than that with Barbarians - doubtless one of you will soon prove this one way or another ...
Meanwhile - LaFayette you have it right - Railroad Tycoons - we bow before you ...
Barbarian cities suffer from heavy corruption (90%+), so the amount they contribute to the trade bonus calculation is nearly zero. But in this case, the trade bonus is based mainly on the SSC's trade anway - so trade with a Barbarian city should be nearly as good as with the AI.
As a check of theory, I loaded my "memphis" game, disarmed Memphis and created a barbarian army at her gates. My pre-barbarian trade routes with Memphis were +40 each. After Memphis became barbarian, the routes were +37 each. That seems like a significant drop, but it's not. With the road/rail/superhighway bonuses in play, the difference between 37 and 40 is one quantum of trade. The drop was caused by the loss of 3 arrows in Memphis due to corruption. By adding one citizen to my SSC and working another roaded plains square for 4 arrows, I was able to restore the bonus to +40.
Thus, the "bait" city concept could be quite effective, even with Barbarians.
By my calculations your SSC should result in the following maximum trade with Superhighways (S), Democracy (D), and Colossus (C) all in effect:
Gold with road: 6 + 1 (D) + 1 (C) + 4 (S) + 1 (R?) = 13
Wine with road: 4 + 1 (D) + 1 (C) + 3 (S) + 1 (R?) = 10
Rivered Silk with road: 4 + 1 (D) + 1 (C) + 3 (S) + 1 (R?) = 10
Rivers with road: 2 + 1 (D) + 1 (C) + 2 (S) = 6 x 7 = 42
Grass/plains w/road: 1 + 1 (D) + 1 (C) + 1 (S) = 4 x 5 = 20
Ocean: 2 + 1 (D) + 1 (C) = 4
(The extra arrow from Gold, Wine, etc. (R?) when roaded under Superhighways may be a rounding effect, not sure.)
total = 99 raw trade
Base trade routes = (99 + Chicago + 4)/8
If Chicago contributes only 1 arrow, you would have 104/8 = 13 as your base trade route. 13 x 2.5 (road/rail/SH bonuses) = 32.
Which is exactly what you saw. But Chicago likely has a bit more than 1 arrow (and less than 9), so if you irrigated the forest square to plains and roaded it, adding 4 more arrows, you might get the base route up to 14. Then 14 x 2.5 = 35 arrows for each route. With 2 more squares converted to plains and roaded you add 8 more arrows and get to +37 for your routes.
With those adjustments your SSC would have 99 + 12 + 37x3 = 222 trade arrows. At 100% science and with the 6X multiplier of library/university/Cope's/INU you'd get 1332 beakers from your SSC alone. 1332/24 = 55 acquired techs (62 total techs with your 7 starting techs.) That's almost to Space Flight if you take the shortest tech path and avoid a few junk techs along the way. Flight/Computers should be a wash -- a research lab will replace in science what you lose in trade when Colossus expires. With the extra trade/science from your helper cities and timely caravan deliveries you should be able to sustain 1 turn advances from Automobile to SF and beyond.
With a 4th trade special, a few more rivers and/or grass/plains squares, an SSC on a medium map could do even better, allowing a few 2 tech/turns in the end game.
Yes, rivers are good - 6 arrows at their peak. But they need Bridge Building and time to develop their potential. Gold is quicker at the start.
I agree that "vigorous trade" is something I need to press for at the endgame. And I think a bit more early expansion at the beginning would help, too. I'm waiting for another good start and will give this thing another try.