A study in failure: Benghazi

[Zevico]

NB. The attack was 6 hours long. How long would reinforcements from, say, Sicily, take?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Ambassador died from smoke inhalation. Likely dead within the first 2 or 3 hours tops. I have heard the idea of reinforcing from Italy. Given an ~1.5 hour flight, scrambling and getting forces to the Italian airport, transit on the road to Benghazi compound. It just doesn't happen in time.

[regexcellent]

NB. The attack was 6 hours long. How long would reinforcements from, say, Sicily, take?

Probably more than 6 hours.

First you have to create a plan. Then you have to write up the orders. These orders are typically very precise to prevent mishaps, especially friendly fire. Then you have to muster the men involved. Then they have to kit up. Then you have to get transport for them and fuel for the transport. Then they have to head over and find a place to land. Then they have to travel over land to the embassy and break the siege. That's not counting any actual planning that has to be done. Unless you have people on standby constantly it's unlikely you'd be able to do that in 6 hours. It's possible, but unlikely.

[Felch]

Probably more than 6 hours.

First you have to create a plan. Then you have to write up the orders. These orders are typically very precise to prevent mishaps, especially friendly fire. Then you have to muster the men involved. Then they have to kit up. Then you have to get transport for them and fuel for the transport. Then they have to head over and find a place to land. Then they have to travel over land to the embassy and break the siege. That's not counting any actual planning that has to be done. Unless you have people on standby constantly it's unlikely you'd be able to do that in 6 hours. It's possible, but unlikely.

If that's military doctrine, then it's no wonder we can't win a war against tribal savages. "Before you can lace up your boots, create a three hundred slide Powerpoint Presentation analyzing the possible consequences of your actions."

[regexcellent]

That's not it.

I assume things are at least slightly different in the real military, but when we do anything in ROTC (and it is claimed this is practice for actual orders-writing) we write up a document called an OPORD (OPerations ORDer). It specifies whom it concerns, what actions will be taken, where the objective is, when the mission is taking place, and the overall objective of the mission (who what when where why). It specifies equipment to bring, routes to be taken, what groups are in which zones, and so on. Basically, every aspect of the mission is planned. In life and death situations it is a very very bad idea to simply rely on human memory and wing it. You get things like friendly fire, air support dropping bombs on our own people, nobody knowing where anyone else is. This isn't Command and Conquer where you just click and drag all your units, and then right click the enemy construction yard.

You might be wondering how this works if, for instance, you're attacked by surprise. Obviously the officers aren't going to start sitting around making slides and maps and sand tables figuring out how to defend the base when it's already under attack. In fact, those plans would probably be drawn up as soon as the base was created. Similarly, on a patrol or convoy or whatever, the plans for what to do in an ambush would be constructed ahead of time. If you want to have forces on hand to respond to the embassy, you draw up plans for moving people from Sicily or wherever ahead of time.

Anyone with real military experience, feel free to correct any mistakes I've made (I'm sure I've made a few).

Also I made a mistake in that post; my list there did account for planning. I edited it and forgot to remove a sentence.

[Berzerker]

That's the situation room, which was one of the earliest locations to be contacted about the attack.

doh... I figured it was the photo of Obama watching real time video of the raid in Pakistan

sorry about that

[DinoDoc]

Ambassador died from smoke inhalation. Likely dead within the first 2 or 3 hours tops. I have heard the idea of reinforcing from Italy. Given an ~1.5 hour flight, scrambling and getting forces to the Italian airport, transit on the road to Benghazi compound. It just doesn't happen in time.

The last 2 Americans reportedly didn't die until more than six hours into the attack.
Could U.S. military have helped during Libya attack?

[The Mad Monk]

EXCLUSIVE: CIA operators were denied request for help during Benghazi attack, sources say


Fox News has learned from sources who were on the ground in Benghazi that an urgent request from the CIA annex for military back-up during the attack on the U.S. consulate and subsequent attack several hours later on the annex itself was denied by the CIA chain of command -- who also told the CIA operators twice to "stand down" rather than help the ambassador's team when shots were heard at approximately 9:40 p.m. in Benghazi on Sept. 11.

Former Navy SEAL Tyrone Woods was part of a small team who was at the CIA annex about a mile from the U.S. consulate where Ambassador Chris Stevens and his team came under attack. When he and others heard the shots fired, they informed their higher-ups at the annex to tell them what they were hearing and requested permission to go to the consulate and help out. They were told to "stand down," according to sources familiar with the exchange. Soon after, they were again told to "stand down."

Woods and at least two others ignored those orders and made their way to the consulate which at that point was on fire. Shots were exchanged. The rescue team from the CIA annex evacuated those who remained at the consulate and Sean Smith, who had been killed in the initial attack. They could not find the ambassador and returned to the CIA annex at about midnight.

At that point, they called again for military support and help because they were taking fire at the CIA safe house, or annex. The request was denied. There were no communications problems at the annex, according those present at the compound. The team was in constant radio contact with their headquarters. In fact, at least one member of the team was on the roof of the annex manning a heavy machine gun when mortars were fired at the CIA compound. The security officer had a laser on the target that was firing and repeatedly requested back-up support from a Spectre gunship, which is commonly used by U.S. Special Operations forces to provide support to Special Operations teams on the ground involved in intense firefights. The fighting at the CIA annex went on for more than four hours -- enough time for any planes based in Sigonella Air base, just 480 miles away, to arrive. Fox News has also learned that two separate Tier One Special operations forces were told to wait, among them Delta Force operators.


A Special Operations team, or CIF which stands for Commanders in Extremis Force, operating in Central Europe had been moved to Sigonella, Italy, but they were never told to deploy. In fact, a Pentagon official says there were never any requests to deploy assets from outside the country. A second force that specializes in counterterrorism rescues was on hand at Sigonella, according to senior military and intelligence sources. According to those sources, they could have flown to Benghazi in less than two hours. They were the same distance to Benghazi as those that were sent from Tripoli. Spectre gunships are commonly used by the Special Operations community to provide close air support.

According to sources on the ground during the attack, the special operator on the roof of the CIA annex had visual contact and a laser pointing at the Libyan mortar team that was targeting the CIA annex. The operators were calling in coordinates of where the Libyan forces were firing from.

More here.

[DaShi]

So?

[MrFun]

I hate having a black man for our president.

Yeah, we know. Old news.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

The last 2 Americans reportedly didn't die until more than six hours into the attack.
Could U.S. military have helped during Libya attack?

Unless I heard wrong the last two killed were the ex-Seals. They initially disobeyed orders to "stand down" and went on their own initiative to the consulate to see what aid they could provide. Finding the place in flames and no means to help anyone they went back to the CIA 'safe house' . Later the CIA safe house took fire and continued for a period of hours. The original point stands the amabassador likely was dead from smoke inhalaltion long before the last two were killed. As for whether the last two Americans could have been saved and if local (read Libyan based) air assets could have been deployed to help them who knows?

[The Mad Monk]

The security officer had a laser on the target that was firing and repeatedly requested back-up support from a Spectre gunship, which is commonly used by U.S. Special Operations forces to provide support to Special Operations teams on the ground involved in intense firefights. The fighting at the CIA annex went on for more than four hours -- enough time for any planes based in Sigonella Air base, just 480 miles away, to arrive.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Yeah but was there a Spectre gunship in the area or not? He was requesting backup for a gunship in the air it is unclear if the Spectre gunship(s) was/were airborn and available to help. As for Sigonella forces, still seems a stretch to scramble and get there in time despite the article claims to the contrary.

[regexcellent]

They would be Spookies, not Spectres, most likely; minor point. Do we even have AC-130s based in Italy or anywhere nearby? My understanding is that they're so overworked that when they're not in the shop they're flying sorties over Afghanistan, constantly. We have fewer than 25 of the things. The Air Force is trying to increase that.

edit: actually we have exactly 25 of them, my mistake

[DinoDoc]

Do we even have AC-130s based in Italy or anywhere nearby?

Here's a question. What's the point of marking a target with a laser if nothing is in the air above you or in route to make use of the information? My understanding is that those things are meant to be fired in communication with assets in the air, not just willy-nilly in hope of something showing up.