Reply With QuoteI'm no fan of the MB, but they've been in power for about 5 minutes. How about we give them a little time to get used to running a country before we start howling for their blood, eh?
The Meaning of the Egypt-Israel Cross-Border Attack [by Barry Rubin of pjmedia.com]
A 35-man seemingly bedouin terrorist team invaded an Egyptian army base in eastern Sinai, stole a truck and armored personnel carrier, and tried to crash the Israel border gate. They killed about 16 Egyptian soldiers but those who tried to cross the border — at least five — were quickly wiped out by Israeli forces.
You will be reading a lot of accounts of this event mostly saying the same things. But what’s really important?
● The incompetence of the Egyptian military. That a whole platoon size unit of terrorists — one of the largest such forces every assembled for such an attack — could plan, organize, and come together without warning for the Egyptian army speaks poorly for its intelligence capability. That they could break into a base doesn’t bode well for the Egyptian military’s competence. Presumably one reason why they wanted Egyptian vehicles — as happened with uniforms on a previous occasion — is to make Israeli soldiers hesitate to shoot or to end up getting Israelis to mistakenly kill Egyptians and set off a wider conflict.
● The attack was probably carried out by an al-Qaida type group allied with counterparts in the Gaza Strip. These organizations don’t care about the well-being of Hamas or the Muslim Brotherhood. By hitting Israel they seek to promote their image to carry out their goals. Yet the more they make enemies of the Muslim Brotherhood branches the more incentive those forces have to suppress them.
● To what extent, however, do these groups have backing from Egyptian Salafist forces or the Palestinian equivalent, Islamic Jihad? Such an alliance could greatly raise the level of violence and internal conflict, especially within Egypt. Is there a chance for the Brotherhood and Salafists to work together or will they clash?
● The Brotherhood immediately blamed Israel for engineering the attack. This means something quite different when the Brotherhood was just an opposition group in Egypt. It is now the government. Consider what this means: the organization governing Egypt has accused Israel of launching an attack on Egyptian soil and killing a lot of Egyptian soldiers. Isn’t that a just cause for war? That’s not going to happen but situations like this will arise repeatedly in future and one day can lead to war.
● The Brotherhood will not even condemn al-Qaida. For example, the new government could have taken a different approach: These extremists are enemies of the Egyptian people because they endanger the state’s stability and economic success. It won’t even do that. So no matter how many cross-border attacks are staged from Egypt and Israel, Egypt will just deny responsibility and blame Israel. What likelihood is there that they will try to vigorously block them?
● Israel has now gotten to the point where it can protect itself from cross-border attacks. We are dealing here with open country where it is hard to sneak up on the border and well-distributed Israeli defense forces that can get to any point on the frontier very quickly.
So in strategic terms, such attacks are not a huge threat but on geopolitical terms the danger is rising steadily.
The U.S. government response is to offer to help train and assist Egypt’s army and government. But the government is not part of the solution but rather part of the problem.
Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood-run government lies to its people about the perpetrator of attacks on the Egyptian army; blames Israel; coddles what is most likely Al Qaeda. NB bald faced lies to one's people and peddling conspiracy theories generally don't indicate a particularly democratic disposition. Particularly if the lie in question concerns issues of potential war. And with an insular society like Egypt's that is half already riddled with conspiratorial thinking and with half to a third illiterate these lies matter.
Questions?
Last edited by Zevico; August 8, 2012 at 07:31.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."--General Sir Charles James Napier
I'm no fan of the MB, but they've been in power for about 5 minutes. How about we give them a little time to get used to running a country before we start howling for their blood, eh?
This is perhaps the lamest apologism I've ever seen.Originally Posted by kentonio
If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
:(){ :|:& };:
STFU tool. I'm a huge Israel supporter who believes things like the Golan Heights and Sinai should have been considered legitimate war gains, and strongly supports Israels right to defend itself against other nations and against terrorist groups used as proxies by hostile states. I supported Israels attack on Osirak and if it comes to a future conflict with Egypt it's very unlikely I wouldn't support them in that as well.
That doesn't mean however that I feel any need to shout and boo and hiss at every mention of the Muslim Brotherhood, or the other players in the region like some kind of buffoonish pantomine audience. If the middle east is ever going to see peace (and trust me, the Israelis want that more than anything) then it's going to require all sides to moderate their positions and reach compromise. It'll happen with words and pens, because if it comes to missile and bombs every time there's not going to be anything left for the winners.
Someone seems excessively defensive. Are you trying to peddle your nonexistant conservative credentials here?
The Muslim Brotherhood is doing bad things and Zevico here is calling them out on it. I don't think blaming Israel for terrorism is a case of the MB trying to get its **** together.
If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
:(){ :|:& };:
The idea that this is an Israeli false flag attack is absurd on its face. That the MB would claim such bullshit is worrisome. Of course, there are undoubtedly members of this board, such as MOBIUS, who will lap up the story like the good useful idiots that they are.
I come from the land of the ice and snow
From the rust belt where industry won't go
If I wasn't a conservative, please explain why I'd feel the need to describe myself as such? If the only meaning of conservative was the current insane US one, I'd be scrambling in the opposite direction as fast as humanly possible. I just get pissed off with the simpleton little *****es like yourself who think that everything has to be black or white.
Zevico is being Zevico and spouting the same anti-arab **** he always does. It doesnt achieve anything, it doesnt help the situation, it fuels further violence in the middle east and ensures that the troubles never stop. As for the MB they're an organization that has relied on over the top rhetoric for years and now for the first time needs to get to grips with the cold realities of actually running a country. It's not going to be pretty at first, and it might all fail horribly, but if it does then that will be bad for everyone, so trying to pile pressure on over something trivial is not helpful.
I don't think anything Zevico says ever advocates or fuels further violence in the middle east.
Oh yes, and an attempted cross-border raid by terrorists who manage to steal some Egyptian Army inventory is not "trivial".
If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
:(){ :|:& };:
Zevico is a perfect example of a GOP chickenhawk who gets his policy ideas from Tom Clancy.I don't think anything Zevico says ever advocates or fuels further violence in the middle east.
As we were talking about the Muslim Brotherhoods response not the attack itself, why would you think it was?
The MB lied about the source of terrorism?
Sounds like another government I have heard of...
"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
"I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain
Oh do piss off you braindead twonk!
This is chicken feed compared to the US' lies of mass destruction with regard to the supposed huge stockpiles of WMDs your dumbass gummint claimed were in Iraq so they could attack it! I know with 100% certainty someone as dumb and gung-ho as you are would have lapped that **** up like the good useful idiot that you most definitely are! What a ****ing knobjockey...
Egypt launches Sinai air raids
Seems like the MB are taking things pretty seriously, but wait that flies in the face of your little pet conspiracy theory...
Meanwhile in Israeli occupied territory...
"History is a lie that has been honed like a weapon by people who have suppressed the truth. Centuries from now, your own history will also be suppressed."
And mobby flies off the handle
I'm pretty sure in Australia they have the "Liberal Party."
I come from the land of the ice and snow
From the rust belt where industry won't go
what a ridiculous article.
a reasonable analysis would say that the sinai has become increasingly lawless in recent times, because of the political and security vacuum since the revolution and as a result certain militant groups have taken advantage of the situation. this was not an attack on israel, it was an attack on egypitan forces. of course the attackers wanted egypitan uniforms and vehicles, it spreads confusion and aids their objectives. it's a very obvious tactic for them to adopt. it's also worth noting, which our military expert (The incompetence of the Egyptian military. That a whole platoon size unit of terrorists — one of the largest such forces every assembled for such an attack — could plan, organize, and come together without warning for the Egyptian army speaks poorly for its intelligence capability. That they could break into a base doesn’t bode well for the Egyptian military’s competence. Presumably one reason why they wanted Egyptian vehicles — as happened with uniforms on a previous occasion — is to make Israeli soldiers hesitate to shoot or to end up getting Israelis to mistakenly kill Egyptians and set off a wider conflict.
pure conjecture. it's unclear at this stage who carried out the attack, it could have been a number of groups, 'islamist' or 'bedouin'. it's interesting because for months and months rubin et al have been saying that the MB are the ideological brothers of islamic extremists and now are having to construct a narrative to explain why these 'islamists' are attacking the forces of the muslim brotherhood government.The attack was probably carried out by an al-Qaida type group allied with counterparts in the Gaza Strip. These organizations don’t care about the well-being of Hamas or the Muslim Brotherhood. By hitting Israel they seek to promote their image to carry out their goals. Yet the more they make enemies of the Muslim Brotherhood branches the more incentive those forces have to suppress them.
● To what extent, however, do these groups have backing from Egyptian Salafist forces or the Palestinian equivalent, Islamic Jihad? Such an alliance could greatly raise the level of violence and internal conflict, especially within Egypt. Is there a chance for the Brotherhood and Salafists to work together or will they clash?
clearly rubin is implying that the egyptains won't try to stop these kind of attacks in future, but let's look at the facts rather than taking this guff at face value. the egypitans have responded with air strikes and troop reinforcements, which is a rather vigorous response. again rubin fails to mention the reason why egypt can't deploy or use its forces more effectively. it's clear that israel and egypt are working together in the wake of these attacks. it's clearly in their interests to do so.● The Brotherhood will not even condemn al-Qaida. For example, the new government could have taken a different approach: These extremists are enemies of the Egyptian people because they endanger the state’s stability and economic success. It won’t even do that. So no matter how many cross-border attacks are staged from Egypt and Israel, Egypt will just deny responsibility and blame Israel. What likelihood is there that they will try to vigorously block them?
just more of the same bullshit from barry rubin. of course it's no surprise that the usual idiots here are lapping it up.
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
DaShi (August 8, 2012)
Obviously the platform is drawn from pages 245-260 of "Executive Orders", Clancy published 1996.And mobby flies off the handle
I'm pretty sure in Australia they have the "Liberal Party."
"Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson
“In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter
Yes, they should randomly start killing some people.This is perhaps the lamest apologism I've ever seen.
"Ceterum censeo Ben esse expellendum."
Progress - Need to work their way up from rape.
"Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson
“In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter
This might be relevant:So one reason that Egypt is so "incompetent" at policing the Sinai is that Israel requires prior notification of Egyptian military operations in the Sinai peninsula.Egypt President Mursi sacks officials after Sinai attacks Military spokesmen said the initial operation against militants in Sinai had been a "success" Egyptian President Mohammed Mursi has sacked the country's intelligence chief and the governor of the country's North Sinai province.
Hours earlier, the Egyptian military launched an offensive in the region against suspected Islamist militants which it says has killed 20 people.
The campaign comes after militants killed 16 Egyptian border guards in the area on Sunday.
On Wednesday, more attacks followed on checkpoints in the town of al-Arish.
Those attacks left a number of people wounded and the military offensive was launched hours later.
The sacking of the country's intelligence chief was announced in a statement on state-run TV.
"Gen Mohamed Murad Mowafi is given retirement starting from today," presidential spokesman Yasser Ali said.
Gen Mowafi had been quoted in Egyptian media as saying that the intelligence services had received warning of Sunday's attack.
However, he said they had only passed the matter on to the relevant authorities, saying that the intelligence services' job was only to collect information.
Mr Mursi has appointed an acting intelligence chief, Gen Mohamed Raafat Abdel-Wahed.
He also dismissed the commander of the presidential guard, as well as several other top security officials.
Sunday's attack was the the deadliest and most brazen against Egyptian troops in the Sinai region for decades, and Mr Mursi had faced criticism for not taking decisive action in response.
SINAI:
Huge desert peninsula of about 60,000 sq km (23,000 sq miles) with a population of only a few hundred thousand
Distinct identity from rest of Egypt; populated by native Bedouin and a substantial minority of Palestinian extraction
Of great strategic importance, linking Egypt to the Middle East, and site of Egyptian border with Israel and only non-Israeli border with Gaza
Under Israeli occupation from 1967 to 1982, it remains under special security regime mandated by 1979 peace treaty, which significantly restricts Egypt's freedom of military action and requires deployment of multinational peacekeeping force
There has been a surge in jihadist activity in the past decade, but analysts say discriminatory treatment by Cairo underpins local unrest
Wednesday's military offensive in Sinai killed 20 people in the village of Touma, according to military officials, while the Sheikh Zuwaid area to the west was also hit.
Military spokesmen said the initial operation had been a "success" and that it was ongoing.
This is the first time Egypt has fired missiles in Sinai since the 1973 war with Israel, when it attempted to recapture the Sinai peninsula, security officials told Associated Press.
Egyptian military presence in Sinai is limited and requires Israeli approval under the terms of the 1979 peace treaty between the nations which returned Sinai to Egyptian control.
State news agency Mena said that during the air raids, hours after the al-Arish checkpoints were attacked, "terrorists" had used rockets and rocket-propelled grenades to try to shoot down the military aircraft "but they failed".
Tensions are very high in the area, where Islamist extremists are said to have gained a foothold in recent months, taking advantage of the security vacuum left after former President Hosni Mubarak was ousted last year, reports the BBC's Yolande Knell in Sinai.
The Egyptian soldiers killed in Sunday's attack were buried on Tuesday in a funeral marked by angry calls for vengeance.
Some protesters chanted slogans against the Muslim Brotherhood, and according to witnesses, tried to assault Prime Minister Hisham Qandil.
Both Israeli and Egyptian officials blamed Sunday's attack on Islamist militants
The Egyptian government, headed by a member of the Muslim Brotherhood, is now undertaking operations against the terrorists.
You might also consider that the Egyptian military still pretty much rules Egypt. If you recall the ruling military council has barred the Egyptian legislature from convening due to its domination by Muslim Brotherhood. It's that military council though which has failed to maintain security in the Sinai. The result of this incident may be the decline the power of the military council.
"I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!
Spam!
"I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!
What, by turning the mirror on you and outing you for precisely the sort of thing you're accusing me of? Nice try numbnuts...And mobby flies off the handle
"History is a lie that has been honed like a weapon by people who have suppressed the truth. Centuries from now, your own history will also be suppressed."
look zevico, those dastardly egypitans encouraging militants in the sinai again. they only sentenced them to death, the leniency! it's tantamount to ordering an attack on israel. i'd better call barry right away so that he write an article to tell you what to think.
A court in Egypt has sentenced 14 members of a militant Islamist group to death for attacks in the town of al-Arish in the Sinai peninsula last year.
Several policemen and soldiers were killed in the attacks, which targeted a police station and a bank.
The sentences must be approved by Egypt's most senior Muslim cleric.
Last edited by C0ckney; August 14, 2012 at 18:50.
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
DaShi (August 14, 2012)
The incident seems to have been the downfall of the military ruling council.
"I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!
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