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Thread: 2nd Level German Court: Circumcision illegal

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    Main_Brain
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    2nd Level German Court: Circumcision illegal

    German court rules circumcision is 'bodily harm'



    A court in Germany has ruled that circumcising young boys for religious reasons amounts to bodily harm.

    In a decision that has caused outrage among Jewish and Muslim groups, the court said that a child's right to physical integrity trumps religious and parental rights.

    The case involved a doctor who carried out a circumcision on a four year-old that led to medical complications.

    Thousands of Muslim and Jewish boys are circumcised in Germany every year.

    Although male circumcision - unlike female circumcision - is not illegal in Germany, the court's judgement said the "fundamental right of the child to bodily integrity outweighed the fundamental rights of the parents".

    Circumcision, it decided, contravenes "interests of the child to decide later in life on his religious beliefs".

    'Protect religious freedom'

    The doctor involved in the case was acquitted and the ruling is not binding, but correspondents say it sets a precedent that would be taken into account by other German courts.

    The president of Germany's Central Council of Jews, Dieter Graumann, called it "an unprecedented and dramatic intervention in the right of religious communities to self-determination".

    He urged the country's parliament to clarify the legal situation "to protect religious freedom against attacks".

    Male circumcision is part of the ancient religious rituals of both the Jewish and Muslim faiths, as well as the traditions of some tribal groups.

    In some countries, such as the United States, it is also not uncommon for parents to request that young boys are circumcised for health reasons.

    The BBC's Stephen Evans in Germany says it is unclear what the next legal step will be, but this issue is a moral and political minefield.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18604664

    The ruling followed a lengthy legal battle, sparked when a Muslim couple decided to have their son circumcised, specifically for religious reasons, by a Muslim doctor in Cologne. The doctor, identified only as Dr K, carried out the circumcision on the four-year old boy in November 2010, before giving the wound four stitches. The same evening, he visited the family at home to check up on the boy. When the boy began bleeding again two days later, his parents took him to the casualty department of Cologne's University hospital. The hospital contacted the police, who then launched an investigation. The doctor was charged with bodily harm, and the case was taken to court.

    While the court acquitted Dr. K on the grounds that he had not broken any law, it concluded that circumcision of minors for religious reasons should be outlawed, and that neither parental consent nor religious freedom justified the procedure. It ruled that in future doctors who carried out circumcisions should be punished.

    The court weighed up three articles from the basic law: the rights of parents, the freedom of religious practice and the right of the child to physical integrity, before coming to the conclusion that the procedure was not in the interests of the child.

    It rejected the defence that circumcision is considered hygienic in many cultures, one of the main reasons it is carried out in the US, Britain and in Germany.

    After much deliberation, it concluded that a circumcision, "even when done properly by a doctor with the permission of the parents, should be considered as bodily harm if it is carried out on a boy unable to give his own consent".

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...-muslim-jewish


    Some Clarifications & Additions: The Doctor made no medical mistake and was not hold liable in this Case / at 14 every Child is allowed to officially change its Religion which the court views as the Time where it is able to make a Decision regarding cutting off a part of his Junk / Before this Decision the Medical Society could claim there is no legal decision against it (Ex Culpa ~Verbotsirrtum) which it now can't / The Court Decision claims the Hygienic Value of the Procedure is marginal in Northwest Europe

    Due to the legal Dispute the 'rzte Zeitung' is advising against circumsisions which are not medically needed as Doctors may be liable to civil and criminal charges.
    http://www.aerztezeitung.de/news/art...neidungen.html (german)
    They also published an Article regarding the grey Area of Circumsisions a few months ago which caught some Heat from a Muslim Society. http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleto...-11801160.html (german)

    There are two more Instances of Courts above this (Bundesgerichtshof and Bundesverfassungsgericht) which likely wont be called.


    TLDR: (Irreversible) Bodily Harm versus Religious Freedom Which is the better Argument?

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    Lorizael
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    You Germans just can't help hating Jews, can you?
    Discuss the latest Civilization: Beyond Earth news here!
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    onodera
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    Letting the child pick its religion . Parents should be made to rear their children as agnostics and provide them access to different religious views.
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    Circumcision, it decided, contravenes "interests of the child to decide later in life on his religious beliefs".
    Are they retarded? Having a cut penis doesn't force someone to believe in anything.
    "South Africa is a shithole. It used to be a decent place." -Ben Kenobi, sharing his wisdom on world history

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    Several Religions forbid/ dont condone Circumcision I recall the Amish forbid it, while Hinduism and Buddhism don't do it.

    Also: The Navajo Nation believes that they are put on the earth the way that they are intended to be. No man would disrupt the spiritual harmony of the family by having circumcision performed on his child.(wiki)
    Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!

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    "Don't condone" isn't really relevant. It's not like someone is going to be prevented from becoming a Buddhist because they were circumcised. Are the children of German Jews really going to join the Navajo nation? REally?
    "South Africa is a shithole. It used to be a decent place." -Ben Kenobi, sharing his wisdom on world history

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    Excellent. ****ing savages.
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    Point is, even if the Child leaves the Religious Group, the Part of his D*** wont grow back.

    http://www.amazon.com/Looking-Lost-B...ion/0380795531
    Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorizael View Post
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    You Germans just can't help hating Jews, can you?
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    This is awful. Don't they know that circumcision reduces your risk of contracting HIV by 0.5%???
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    For something this trivial, they really ought to err on the side of religious liberty. Not that I'd ever do it to my kid--ouch! But it doesn't much matter. Lower AIDS risk vs. ostensibly higher sexual pleasure (which could conceivably make you climax sooner, which isn't exactly desirable) vs. it's part of his body vs. so's his appendix...
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    I read somewhere that the Prime Minister of South Africa just underwent a circumcison in order to encourage other South African men to get circumcisions. Circumcision seems to cut the rate of HIV transmission by 50%.
    "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

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    Dr Strangelove
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    Quote Originally Posted by loinburger View Post
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    This is awful. Don't they know that circumcision reduces your risk of contracting HIV by 0.5%???

    Studies done in Africa show that the risk reduction is more like 50%.
    "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

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    No tonsillectomies before 14 either... if necessary we can create a religion which excommunicates and forever damns those without tonsils :nazi:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove View Post
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    Studies done in Africa show that the risk reduction is more like 50%.

    If circumcised men start thinking they don't have to worry about HIV, watch that figure fall fast.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove View Post
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    Studies done in Africa show that the risk reduction is more like 50%.
    Studies in Africa had a fatal flaw. The ones who underwent religious circumcision came from groups that had strong taboos against pre and extra marital sex and forbade drugs and alcohol. It would be like studying the Amish and saying, "They have beards and almost a 0% HIV rate. All men must grow beards."

    Note: I have a beard and don't have HIV.
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    Dr Strangelove
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Sparky View Post
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    Studies in Africa had a fatal flaw. The ones who underwent religious circumcision came from groups that had strong taboos against pre and extra marital sex and forbade drugs and alcohol. It would be like studying the Amish and saying, "They have beards and almost a 0% HIV rate. All men must grow beards."

    Note: I have a beard and don't have HIV.
    African muslims may have a problem with drugs and alcohol, but they definitely don't have a problem with extra-marital sex. Remember, if discovered it's the woman who gets punished.
    "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elok View Post
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    For something this trivial, they really ought to err on the side of religious liberty.
    Really?

    I think the health of children is more important. Why subject them to a medically unnecessary, one-way procedure that will affect them the rest of their life?

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    Asher
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove View Post
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    Studies done in Africa show that the risk reduction is more like 50%.
    With unprotected sex. With a condom on it's nil.

    Why give people more of an excuse?

    As a side note, how many men actually contract HIV from women? For some reason this also only applies to heterosexuals. 14 studies have all shown that for MSM, there's no impact.

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    Elok
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asher View Post
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    Really?

    I think the health of children is more important. Why subject them to a medically unnecessary, one-way procedure that will affect them the rest of their life?
    Because the effect is minuscule and hundreds of millions of men live out full, healthy lives not giving a damn that it happened to them.
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  22. #21
    Asher
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    BTW, I thought recent studies showed this is also only really true of people circumcised as adults (due to extra scar tissue, etc).

  23. #22
    Asher
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elok View Post
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    Because the effect is minuscule and hundreds of millions of men live out full, healthy lives not giving a damn that it happened to them.


    Tell that to the victims of botched circumcisions. Which happens more than you might think.

    David Reimer would be interested in your opinion. But alas, he killed himself due to his botched circumcision.

  24. #23
    Elok
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    Um, it sounds like he killed himself due to doctors insisting that he was a girl now, among other things. Generally it appears his whole life was messed up, what with him being a guinea pig for experiments about learned gender identity or something.
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    Asher
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    Yes. And why did that happen?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asher View Post
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    Yes. And why did that happen?
    Why did he kill himself? Because his wife wanted to leave him? Because suicide was in his family history- his identical twin brother had already done it? I guess this proves that having a brother with a botched circumcision also causes you to kill yourself?
    "South Africa is a shithole. It used to be a decent place." -Ben Kenobi, sharing his wisdom on world history

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    Asher
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    Brother was mentally ill in other ways.

    I wonder why a wife would leave a man with no penis?

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    gribbler
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    So apparently someone started with the exact same DNA but didn't have a botched penis, and was raised by the same parents, but he still killed himself.
    "South Africa is a shithole. It used to be a decent place." -Ben Kenobi, sharing his wisdom on world history

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    Asher
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    Quote Originally Posted by gribbler View Post
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    So apparently someone started with the exact same DNA but didn't have a botched penis, and was raised by the same parents, but he still killed himself.
    Yes, he was schizophrenic.

    Is your position if one twin kills himself, so will the other?

  30. #29
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    Well, your one extreme isolated case has certainly convinced me.
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    Asher
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    http://www.circumstitions.com/death.html

    In most cases, botched circumcisions don't result in death. But infections from circumcisions are not rare, and most botched circumcisions just leave it permanently disfigured (and even successful circumcisions permanently disfigure )

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