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Thread: Are American Politics Broken?

  1. #91
    notyoueither
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    Quote Originally Posted by C0ckney View Post
    wezil - in the UK there are a number of MPs who often vote against their parties on various issues. sometimes parties invoke a three line whip which is meant to force MPs to vote with party's position. the majority fall in line, but there are some who 'lose the whip' for a time. it's very rare for an MP to be kicked out by a party for not towing the line.

    there have been cases where a party has deselected a popular local MP in an attempt to impose a centrally chosen candidate. this sometimes backfires. i remember one case where labour deselected a welsh MP and imposed a candidate. the deselected guy won a thumping majority as an independent at the next election.

    What is the mechanism by which the party can impose a candidate for a riding in the UK?

    In Canada it is that the candidate must obtain the party leader's signature on nomination papers. Not surprisingly, that is the single biggest factor in how our system has gone disfunctional (IMO).
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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by C0ckney View Post
    i think it's silly to call one system faulty and another system sound. each system has its positives and negatives, and while i have acknowledged the negatives which come with PR, you have not said a word about the problems with FPTP.

    Because I concede that FPTP has problems, or is less than theoretically ideal?

    My problem with PR is that the solution is worse than the problem. I'm interested in a balance of things that lead to best government. I do not believe that Greece or Italy have been well served by PR systems.

    and what is 'representation'? from what wezil says, it seems that your MPs represent their parties first and the local people distant second.

    The concerns of local residents are put forth by MPs in caucus, the legislature and to government. Collectively they form a consensus. Things may be tinkered with, but fundamentally I feel this is crucial for a well functioning democracy.

    Wezil is not painting a complete picture. I grant that the parties have too much power over MPs. The solution to that is not to give the parties more power.
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  3. #93
    C0ckney
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    Quote Originally Posted by notyoueither View Post
    What is the mechanism by which the party can impose a candidate for a riding in the UK?

    In Canada it is that the candidate must obtain the party leader's signature on nomination papers. Not surprisingly, that is the single biggest factor in how our system has gone disfunctional (IMO).
    there are different rules for different parties, but usually parties decide a shortlist of candidates that are acceptable to them and local associations choose from that list. usually they will choose people who have a connection to the area and sometimes will choose people not on the approved list. however 'rising stars' will often find their way into safe seats, despite having no connections to an area.

    sometimes the intervention will be more direct. the labour party for example has a national executive which can veto the choice of a non-list candidate or even a list one if, for example, damaging information about them comes to light after having been selected. this is usually fairly controversial. they can also impose things like all-women short lists, which obviously can be used as a ploy to exclude people.
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    C0ckney
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    Quote Originally Posted by notyoueither View Post
    Because I concede that FPTP has problems, or is less than theoretically ideal?
    because you ignored the various problems that i pointed out that would be solved with a PR system.

    My problem with PR is that the solution is worse than the problem. I'm interested in a balance of things that lead to best government. I do not believe that Greece or Italy have been well served by PR systems.
    that's a very weak argument. i don't see any evidence that the problems of greece and italy (which uses an additional member system - similar to that which is used in scotland - not pure PR) are linked to the fact that they use proportional systems. if they were you would expect to see similar problems in other countries which use PR, but of course there are many well run countries which use proportional systems.

    The concerns of local residents are put forth by MPs in caucus, the legislature and to government. Collectively they form a consensus. Things may be tinkered with, but fundamentally I feel this is crucial for a well functioning democracy.

    Wezil is not painting a complete picture. I grant that the parties have too much power over MPs. The solution to that is not to give the parties more power.
    you keep saying this but this is far from the most serious problem with FPTP and you ignore the rest.

    under a FPTP system, huge numbers of people in 'safe seats' get no representation. their political views don't matter, their votes are meaningless, they might as well not bother and many of them don't. or if they do vote, instead of actually voting according to their political preferences, they vote for the lesser of the evils or tactically to keep out the reds/blues.
    "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

    "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

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    Quote Originally Posted by C0ckney View Post
    you keep saying this but this is far from the most serious problem with FPTP and you ignore the rest.

    under a FPTP system, huge numbers of people in 'safe seats' get no representation. their political views don't matter, their votes are meaningless, they might as well not bother and many of them don't. or if they do vote, instead of actually voting according to their political preferences, they vote for the lesser of the evils or tactically to keep out the reds/blues.
    Which is why some kind of preference voting is ideal. It solves all the issues you have with FPTP but keeps the good parts about it.
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    C0ckney
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    preferential voting can produce perverse results and is not proportional. it absolutely does not solve the issues i raised.
    "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

    "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

  7. #97
    C0ckney
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    just to be clear, i'm talking elections for legislatures. i don't have a problem with preferential voting when there's only one position up for grabs (so like a mayor or president).
    "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

    "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

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    Zevico
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    Preferential voting means you vote for your preferred candidate and party for your local MP, and lose nothing even if that local candidate isn't popular enough to win this time. In other words, it does away with strategic voting considerations entirely. It isn't proportional but so what?
    "You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."--General Sir Charles James Napier

  9. #99
    Wezil
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    Quote Originally Posted by C0ckney View Post

    under a FPTP system, huge numbers of people in 'safe seats' get no representation. their political views don't matter, their votes are meaningless, they might as well not bother and many of them don't. or if they do vote, instead of actually voting according to their political preferences, they vote for the lesser of the evils or tactically to keep out the reds/blues.
    That's a huge problem here as our politics are very regional. A non-Conservative living in Alberta is **** out of luck for getting any representation besides a Conservative (often a Conservative that Conservatives don't even want. i.e. Rob Anders - supported and protected by the Party).

    It sounds like the PMO has much greater power under our system than yours. Cabinets used to matter in this country but even they are becoming meaningless as all policy is dictated and vetted through the PMO now. We are truly in a bad spot. If not for the Courts (where our current government fares abysmally) there would be no check on PMO power.
    "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
    "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

  10. #100
    C0ckney
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zevico View Post
    Preferential voting means you vote for your preferred candidate and party for your local MP, and lose nothing even if that local candidate isn't popular enough to win this time. In other words, it does away with strategic voting considerations entirely. It isn't proportional but so what?
    preferential voting does nothing to address tactical voting, in fact, in many ways it makes it even more intricate. it does not solve the problem of false majorities and in some cases makes them worse. it doesn't solve the problem of the lack of representation for people who don't share the dominant political view in an area. it does not allow parties representation in parliament according to their share of the vote. it does nothing to solve the 'safe seat' problem. in short, it does nothing to solve the problems that the FPTP system creates.
    "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

    "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

  11. #101
    C0ckney
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wezil View Post
    That's a huge problem here as our politics are very regional. A non-Conservative living in Alberta is **** out of luck for getting any representation besides a Conservative (often a Conservative that Conservatives don't even want. i.e. Rob Anders - supported and protected by the Party).
    it's fairly regional in the UK. there are many, many places where the devil himself could win a handsome majority as long as he was wearing the appropriately coloured red/blue rosette. it reduces electoral contests to a minority of marginal seats. those in safe seats with differing views have no electoral voice.

    It sounds like the PMO has much greater power under our system than yours. Cabinets used to matter in this country but even they are becoming meaningless as all policy is dictated and vetted through the PMO now. We are truly in a bad spot. If not for the Courts (where our current government fares abysmally) there would be no check on PMO power.
    under blair there was a lot of criticism that government had become too presidential. under the coalition things have improved and there seems to have been something of a return to cabinet government, although i don't attribute this too any great democratic instincts on behalf of cameron, but rather on the realities of being in coalition.
    "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

    "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

  12. #102
    Wezil
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    I was forced to vote for the socialists last time out to prevent a Conservative from "coming up the middle". I felt so dirty.
    "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
    "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

  13. #103
    C0ckney
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    tactical voting is the devil.
    "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

    "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

  14. #104
    Wezil
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    Unfortunately our current Conservative Party is the Devil's plaything.
    "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
    "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

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    My socialist MP is awesome for entertainment value.

    She once publicly accused a Conservative member of watching porn on his iphone while sitting in the House. He was actually viewing pictures of his family's vacation...
    "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
    "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

  16. #106
    C0ckney
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    maybe they were holidaying on a nudist beach...
    "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

    "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

  17. #107
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    Nobody gets killed for his beliefs in our democracy; nobody is jailed or beaten for speaking his mind. Nevertheless, there are moments when the curtain is pulled back, and we see the interplay of power and subordination in its rawest form — the humiliations, the lies, and most humiliating of all the obligatory lie, the forced confession, in which some poor schmuck is dragged in front of the cameras and required to state that day is night, even when, especially when, the whole world knows that day is not night, and knows that he knows day is not night but has been forced to say it anyway just to rub his nose in it, or rather to rub our noses in it, to assert the primacy of power, not just over poor schmucks, but over truth itself — and it all looks just a little bit Darkness At Noon .

    Such a moment came and went last week with the re-education of David Wilks. The Kootenay-Columbia MP had been caught on video telling his constituents of his concerns about the omnibus budget bill, that 425-page ransom note demanding MPs approve amendments to more than 60 bills at once, or bring about the government’s defeat.

    A “barrage” of Conservative MPs had similar concerns about the bill, he told the gathering, believing it should be split — “and I am one of them.” Mind you, he went on, there was little he could do on his own. But if a dozen other Tories could be persuaded to vote against it, he would do likewise. “I will stand up and say the Harper government should get rid of Bill C-38.”

    Within hours of the video’s appearance, Wilks had recanted. “I support this bill, and the jobs and growth measures that it will bring for Canadians in Kootenay-Columbia and right across the country,” read a statement posted on his website. Of course he does. He always has.

    One can only imagine the conversation with the prime minister’s office that preceded this. Wilks would have been reminded not only of how little he stood to gain from this adventure — the possibilities of advancement, now forfeit — but of what he stood to lose: his nomination at the next election, even his place in caucus.

    Two things are illustrated by this episode. One, that amid the general decline of Parliament, the most degrading state of all is that into which MPs of the governing party have fallen. There was a time, after all, when even a prime minister had to mind his back bench — or at any rate, when the caucus had not yet been reduced to a mere appendage of the government. We think of them now as more or less the same thing, but they are not, in principle, and did not use to be in practice.

    Until the Second World War, before an MP could take up an appointment to Cabinet — I mean an MP of the governing party — he had to resign his seat and run in a byelection. The reason? His role had changed. He was no longer a watchdog on the government, as MPs of whatever party are supposed to be, but had become a member of it. As such he was obliged to seek the permission of his electors — of his bosses, you might say. That is how people thought.

    Compare to today, when MPs, at least on the government side, have long ceased to perform any such watchdog role — when those few, indeed, who have not been made a part of the government in some capacity have been suborned into behaving as if they were, handing out cheques and officiating at ribbon-cutting ceremonies just like real ministers of the Crown. Sometimes they have even been given authority to sign off on particular projects: to spend the people’s money, rather than to scrutinize how others spend it.
    The abuse of power embodied in the omnibus bill did not begin with it, nor will it end there

    The other thing Wilks’s trip to the woodshed should teach us is that the abuse of power embodied in the omnibus bill did not begin with it, nor will it end there. In a parliament worthy of the name, aware of its ancient rights and zealous against their encroachment, such a bill could never pass. The present abuse of power, that is, was only made possible by previous abuses: by the arrogation of powers in the Prime Minister’s Office that are rightfully Parliament’s, the long process of erosion by which the legislature was effectively subjugated by the executive, if not subsumed within it.

    Likewise, the bill will quite probably lead to further abuses of power. Contained within it are a number of measures that would take powers that were previously set out in statute, or applied by arms’ length regulators, and vest them in cabinet, or in the discretion of individual ministers: the power to define what is “suitable employment” in the employment insurance regulations, for instance, or to create new categories of immigrants; the power to decide whether a particular energy project should be accepted or rejected, over the objections of the National Energy Board. Perhaps these are individually acceptable, perhaps not: but the more power is centralized in this way, the greater the potential, not just for abuse, but just plain old bad decisions.

    Perhaps I am being too kind to Wilks. Maybe when he told his constituents he was prepared to vote against the bill, he was being disingenuous, pandering, telling them what they wanted to hear. But I actually think he meant it, the poor schmuck.

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