Reply With QuoteOriginally Posted by Kuciwalker
we, that is to say, voters, want to keep collective bargaining and the unions are defending that right.
Don't worry about the environment. It'll go away.
I don't recycle. I drive an SUV. I'm ashamed to say, however, that my power comes from the hydroelectric plant on the Genessee River downtown.
Not to get off track from how horrible unions are, though.
I come from the land of the ice and snow
From the rust belt where industry won't go
we, that is to say, voters, want to keep collective bargaining and the unions are defending that right.
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
That's an inspired argument. We want it, therefore keeping it is good and getting rid of it is bad!
Note that the election in Wisconsin right now demonstrates that the voters don't, in fact, support collective bargaining.
thank you. perhaps one day you'll be able to make an intelligent argument in favour of your position.
and yes, rights come from society deciding that it wants people to have those rights. so if someone tries to get rid of rights that the society wants people to have, that is bad.
that's funny, because polls have repeatedly shown, and i have pointed this out to you in past, that voters support the right to collective bargaining.Note that the election in Wisconsin right now demonstrates that the voters don't, in fact, support collective bargaining.
Last edited by C0ckney; May 14, 2012 at 18:53.
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
And yet right here we have an actual election based entirely around a politician actually ending collective bargaining. This seems like as close as you can come to a referendum on the question without actually holding a referendum. And it looks like the anti-collective bargaining side will win. I guess that shows getting rid of collective bargaining is a good thing, because the voters don't want it!
i am basing my view about what the voters want on several polls which asked people directly about collective bargaining.
you are basing yours on an election which hasn't happened yet.
the election will be close, let's see what happens.
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
Actually, polls are saying it's supposed to be an easy victory for Scott Walker.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefi...ints-in-recall
I come from the land of the ice and snow
From the rust belt where industry won't go
Why should shareholders have part of their profits taken from them so CEOs can give it to politicians as campaign contributions? If the politicians were so great let the shareholders pay to them of his own volition.
"Our scientific power has out run out spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men." - Martin Luther King Jr.
"A cynical, mercenary, demagogic press will produce in time a people as base as itself." - Joseph Pulitzer
Apples do not equal oranges. Can you answer the question posed or not?
I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio
The question I asked? Yes, they shouldn't be able to give one red cent without a complete shareholder vote on each individual campaign donation. Do that and then we can make similar laws about union fees but until then you're just the same partisan hack you've always been.
"Our scientific power has out run out spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men." - Martin Luther King Jr.
"A cynical, mercenary, demagogic press will produce in time a people as base as itself." - Joseph Pulitzer
Not your question; DinoDoc's question. Christ.
I come from the land of the ice and snow
From the rust belt where industry won't go
Yeah, QED!
If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
:(){ :|:& };:
He didn't say "exploited and consumed to the point where it is no longer exploitable or consumable." He merely stated the obvious truth that the environment is, in fact, there to be used. Not in the "god created the earth for humans" sense, but in the sense of "what the **** else would you do with it"
If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
:(){ :|:& };:
OM NOM NOM
Conserve it for future generations? If they're going to be ripped off with a huge national debt and social security could they at least have an environment that isn't trashed to satisfy greed?
The people are speaking:
http://www.businessinsider.com/scott...#ixzz1usmZNUNW
Walker has a commanding lead over Democratic challenger Tom Barrett: 52 percent to 43 percent.
"Flutie was better than Kelly, Elway, Esiason and Cunningham." - Ben Kenobi
"I have nothing against Wilson, but he's nowhere near the same calibre of QB as Flutie. Flutie threw for 5k+ yards in the CFL." -Ben Kenobi
Your question is irrelevant to the one I asked. Why should the State be both a closed shop and the mechanism by which the union receives its dues?
I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio
It is the smart thing to do. Would you suggest the State negotiate tens of thousands of of individual contracts? Or have collective agreements?
Should the State litigate every employee dispute, or have a built in mechanism for resolving disputes?
As an employee, especially a professional employee, you'd be an idiot not to want a union protecting your rights.
If you want to work without a collective agreement, I'm sure you can find many companies that will hire you. Have you tried Wal*mart? I hear Target is another great company to work for.
There's nothing wrong with the dream, my friend, the problem lies with the dreamer.
Walker is beloved by Republicans nationwide. He has unimpeachable credentials as a social and fiscal conservative. He's also an electoral juggernaut who somehow manages to win in a state that went blue in the last six presidential elections - even for Michael Dukakis.
Walker looks like he'll win this election - and three or four more after that. And I don't just mean in Wisconsin.
"You're the biggest user of hindsight that I've ever known. Your favorite team, in any sport, is the one that just won. If you were a woman, you'd likely be a slut." - Slowwhand, to Imran
Eschewing silly games since December 4, 2005
You wouldn't know it from the way the press reports on him, though.
If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
:(){ :|:& };:
Yeah you really wouldn't. MSNBC makes him seem like a dead man walking.
"Flutie was better than Kelly, Elway, Esiason and Cunningham." - Ben Kenobi
"I have nothing against Wilson, but he's nowhere near the same calibre of QB as Flutie. Flutie threw for 5k+ yards in the CFL." -Ben Kenobi
Because its not a completely unregulated market.
If a company can hire staff for very little they can sell products at a reduced rate over companies that pay more. Why do you think jobs go to countries like China and India? Why would a company offer high wages if they then have to sell at a higher rate, when other companies are not needing to do the same? Damn right they'd settle on the lowest possible level they felt they could get away with.
Because when a job requires particular skills that gives a modicum of power to the employee, as long as those skills are in demand. Even then that only helps as long as the overall paygrade for that profession doesn't fall too low.
Yes it'd be terrible if a company was required to provide you with worker protections, that would certainly send the company bust and ruin your life, just like it hasn't in all the countries that have those protections.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...lxOU_blog.html
Basically the RNC and right wing various super pacs have opened the flood gates flooding WI market with pro-walker ads while the DNC has refused to put much money in to the local effort saying they prefer to save their money for the national elections. That said, most of walker's money is from out of state.
"Our scientific power has out run out spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men." - Martin Luther King Jr.
"A cynical, mercenary, demagogic press will produce in time a people as base as itself." - Joseph Pulitzer
Because its not a completely unregulated market.
OK. So in a completely unregulated market, wages would vanish to basically nothing? Supply and demand just don't operate at all in the labor market?
If a company can hire staff for very little they can sell products at a reduced rate over companies that pay more. Why do you think jobs go to countries like China and India? Why would a company offer high wages if they then have to sell at a higher rate, when other companies are not needing to do the same? Damn right they'd settle on the lowest possible level they felt they could get away with.
Key part bolded. Why is that level supposedly almost zero? As I mentioned before, my job has very few protections (if any) and my wage is substantially higher than average. Apparently what they "they feel they can get away with" can actually be pretty high.
Because when a job requires particular skills that gives a modicum of power to the employee, as long as those skills are in demand. Even then that only helps as long as the overall paygrade for that profession doesn't fall too low.
Why haven't wages for all jobs that don't require "particular skills" fallen all the way to minimum wage in the recession? After all, the vast majority of jobs are neither unionized nor already paying minimum wage. What keeps employers paying more than they have to?
Yes it'd be terrible if a company was required to provide you with worker protections, that would certainly send the company bust and ruin your life, just like it hasn't in all the countries that have those protections.
Yes, restrictions on things like hours worked per week would be a big problem for my employer.
If you don't like how a company spends political dollars, you can invest in another company.
Let's see you do that as easily with a union.
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
I would suggest that it happen as it does in any other state. Most states in the US don't operate that way.
I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio
Many states already have opt outs. BTW publicly traded companies aren't regulated wrt political donations and that needs to change.
"Our scientific power has out run out spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men." - Martin Luther King Jr.
"A cynical, mercenary, demagogic press will produce in time a people as base as itself." - Joseph Pulitzer
Donations must be declared, that is sufficient regulation for me.
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
Wages would fall to as low as companies could get away with offering as I said. There are natural floors as workers have to be able to afford basic housing, food etc, but again I ask you, why would a company willingly choose to pay more than they have to in a market where there are no in built protections for workers? Especially in an economy with significant unemployment?
Who said it was almost zero? I said (and you even bolded it) 'the lowest possible level they felt they could get away with'. That isn't going to be almost zero, but it's going to be ****. You keep referring to your job, but a) I have no idea what that job is or the circumstances arouand b) your job does not exist in a vacuum.
For one thing if the non-unionized workers started receiving wages and conditions that were drastically bad then you'd see a massive growth in unions. Oh except that many states are trying to destroy them and the right to collective bargaining.
Funny, I work in an industry where crunch times are commonplace and the expectation was always that people would work long hours and extra days for no direct reward when needed. A couple of years ago the working hours directive became a big thing and everyone was talking about what a terrible effect it would have. In practise it made no significant difference to companies, they just had to actually start looking after their employees better. If you don't hold a stake in a company, then why exactly should that company be entitled to expect you to give your time for no financial reward? Are you a serf?
If you want to talk supply and demand btw, what exactly do you think workers do with the money when they receive higher wages?
The value of everything is the price, but not necessarily the cost.
Workers would be paid based on supply and demand. If wages fall too low nobody will work for you and they'll all go to your competitors, just like with everything else. That is the real floor on wages.
I come from the land of the ice and snow
From the rust belt where industry won't go
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