Canada-Europe free trade agreement could be final in 6 months

[regexcellent]

I have a friend from Trois-Rivières and as far as I can tell he eats most of the same sorts of things I do.

[Ben Kenobi]

Most cow farms close (and unlike Obi Wan's opinion that it's better to work minimum wage and pay 30% less for cheese than to own your farm, no it isn't)

I know dairy farmers both in the lower mainland and around PG. Please. They do very well for themselves. Sure, they get less for their cheese, but they still do very well.

Why would they close? Dairy farms in Quebec would close, if they were not subsidized by Western Canada.

Are replaced by large exploitations or imports

BC alone could replace the entire output of Quebec and then some. Plenty of room here for dairy farming.

diversity of taste

If there's a market for 'made in Quebec' cheese, then the market will supply whatever demand there is for it. Some people are willing to pay a premium for local supply.

I worked in a health food store, Oncle Boris. It's not clear to me that opening it to true competition would result in a shortage of the cheese that you like. Quite the opposite. If there's a demand for it, someone will make it.

[Oncle Boris]

Interprovincial trade is the result of well, an interprovincial agreement.

If you don't like the system, petition your government not to respect Quebec's quota. It's your decision.

Besides, I do think that BC is not part of the agreement with Quebec.

[notyoueither]

They closed.

And define "healthy".

I think it is time for you to begin supporting your assertions.

I have already provided material that shows a 70% decline in the number of dairy farms between 1980 and 2004, a period of consolidation with supply management in full effect.

Healthy is not an industry which is driving out producers and preventing new entrants due to artificially high costs of entry.

[Oncle Boris]

You're begging the question.

No I'm not. I'm calling rural disenfranchisement an externality of optimal produce pricing.
You refuse to recognize this externality, because you believe that humanity is better off adapting to prices, moving. In the same way that proper utility measurements must include a "minimum utility per person", I think a "minimum utility per community" also makes sense.

Large corporations that transform milk suffer very little from price variations; producers take all the shots, and should get some help.

You will never agree with me over this, I know.

If people actually want to buy some type of milk or cheese then I'm sure someone will sell it to them.

And I'm sure that if people want to buy fries made of non-hydrogenated oil, someone will sell it to them. Until of course the truth emerges from 30 years of FDA/food chemistry departments bribery!

Seriously, go to the damn grocery store sometime. Do you really think we're suffering from some crippling lack of product diversity caused by capitalism? My grocery store has a ridiculous number of different types of cheese and dairy.

There is no lack of transformed product diversity, but there is a clear lack of brute resource diversity. Read more on agriculture.

And why would quality decline? Again, the grocery store I go to has plenty of different qualities of milk available for purchase. Lower-quality milk is cheaper, higher-quality is expensive. Same in eggs, butter, cheese, in EVERYTHING.

Better products are available in Quebec too; we're just keeping a minimum quality level for large scale supply.

So, in order to prevent big corporations from lobbying the government for preferential treatment and government handouts, we should give preferential treatment and government handouts to small farmers?

Milk is not directly subsidized in Quebec. The "handout" is the quota.

And yes indeed, I suspect in this case that the division of benefits into a high number of smaller actors preserves a check of power.

[regexcellent]

And I'm sure that if people want to buy fries made of non-hydrogenated oil, someone will sell it to them. Until of course the truth emerges from 30 years of FDA/food chemistry departments bribery!

I buy them all the time at Five Guys.

[Oncle Boris]

I think it is time for you to begin supporting your assertions.

I have already provided material that shows a 70% decline in the number of dairy farms between 1980 and 2004, a period of consolidation with supply management in full effect.

Healthy is not an industry which is driving out producers and preventing new entrants due to artificially high costs of entry.

What you didn't mention is that the production per cow rose extremely quickly, so much that farmers had to buy quotas to keep up; a lot simply decided to sell to their neighbor.

The movement was mostly a movement of consolidation between small farmers; we have less farms, but near all of them are still at the family scale.

[Ben Kenobi]

Besides, I do think that BC is not part of the agreement with Quebec.

Strictly quota controlled.

[Hauldren Collider]

You know, Boris, if you aren't happy with the food restaurants serve you, it's entirely possible to get the ingredients to make food yourself. My mom does it all the time. The results are pretty amazing.

[Ben Kenobi]

The movement was mostly a movement of consolidation between small farmers; we have less farms, but near all of them are still at the family scale.

So, IOW, the status quo is producing the effect that you railed against, consolidating the dairy industry, and killing small farmers. Funny that! One would think that by reducing competition you'd be helping, not hurting the big players.

[Oncle Boris]

You know, Boris, if you aren't happy with the food restaurants serve you, it's entirely possible to get the ingredients to make food yourself. My mom does it all the time. The results are pretty amazing.

WTF are you trying to say.

Hydrogenated oil is poison.

The truth was stifled for a very long time before the knowledge became a public issue. It shouldn't have taken that long.

[regexcellent]

If it's poison then I really ought to be dead by now.

[Oncle Boris]

So, IOW, the status quo is producing the effect that you railed against, consolidating the dairy industry, and killing small farmers. Funny that! One would think that by reducing competition you'd be helping, not hurting the big players.

If by "killing farmers" you mean "sell your 30 cow farms at a profit and consolidate the industry in 70 cow farms" then so be it.

[Ben Kenobi]

If by "killing farmers" you mean "sell your 30 cow farms at a profit and consolidate the industry in 70 cow farms" then so be it.

If 'consolidation' were an evil, why are you satisfied with the consolidation of the dairy industry under the status quo?

[Oncle Boris]

If 'consolidation' were an evil, why are you satisfied with the consolidation of the dairy industry under the status quo?

I clearly meant "consolidation" as "turn small owners into employees of vast domains", not "turn working class people into comfortable middle".

[The Mad Monk]

What you didn't mention is that the production per cow rose extremely quickly, so much that farmers had to buy quotas to keep up; a lot simply decided to sell to their neighbor.

The movement was mostly a movement of consolidation between small farmers; we have less farms, but near all of them are still at the family scale.

I view that as an example of how quotas can harm the nation at large. Why limit the amount of product available?

[Oncle Boris]

I view that as an example of how quotas can harm the nation at large. Why limit the amount of product available?

You're not exactly "limiting" it, you're adjusting it to demand. The government issues quotas based on demand.

[dannubis]

I view that as an example of how quotas can harm the nation at large. Why limit the amount of product available?

Why ***** about your trade deficit with China then ?

[The Mad Monk]

I never do.

[The Mad Monk]

You're not exactly "limiting" it, you're adjusting it to demand. The government issues quotas based on demand.

You are limiting it. How does the government measure demand?

[Oncle Boris]

Wezil: you wanted to discuss the "real issue", so here we go.

Some farmers paid their quota at exorbitant prices. Should the government compensate for their value?

And if the government compensates, should they refund according to price paid, or market value? (knowing that some quotas have never been "paid" for...)

[Oncle Boris]

You are limiting it. How does the government measure demand?

I suspect that examining inventory movements is a possible method.

[The Mad Monk]

For that matter, what forces the farmers to buy more quotas if their cows produce more? Can't they just use fewer cows or (as wasteful as it seems) dump excess milk down the drain?

[Oncle Boris]

For that matter, what forces the farmers to buy more quotas if their cows produce more? Can't they just use fewer cows or (as wasteful as it seems) dump excess milk down the drain?

Of course they could turn the cow into meat, and yes dumping milk occurs. I would presume that there is more money to be made selling the cow along with the quota to someone who's handling just fine.

[The Mad Monk]

I thought that the point was that they had to buy more quotas, since they're for a certain volume of milk, not per cow. This is what I don't understand. If a given cow produces more, it should make things less difficult and less expensive for the farmer, not more. Why sell under that circumstance? Are they forced to buy a certain amount of quota per cow? Is something else going on?

[Ben Kenobi]

"turn small owners into employees of vast domains",

Which is what is happening at present.

[gribbler]

You're not exactly "limiting" it, you're adjusting it to demand. The government issues quotas based on demand.

If quotas didn't reduce the amount produced relative to what would be produced without a quota, the market value of a quota would be negligible.

[Oncle Boris]

If quotas didn't reduce the amount produced relative to what would be produced without a quota, the market value of a quota would be negligible.

Two things:

1) Lower interests have raised the prices of quotas
2) The security conferred by a quota is highly valuable

[Oncle Boris]

Which is what is happening at present.

Not if you're selling the quota!

[Oncle Boris]

I thought that the point was that they had to buy more quotas, since they're for a certain volume of milk, not per cow. This is what I don't understand. If a given cow produces more, it should make things less difficult and less expensive for the farmer, not more. Why sell under that circumstance? Are they forced to buy a certain amount of quota per cow? Is something else going on?

The quota system is on a production basis, not attached to cows.

I would presume that there is a capital investment that depends on your number of cows. If you have to reduce your number of cows, you are under-utilizing your capital and you might want to find a buyer that can afford to use it optimally (he has better margins than you do).

Apparently another significant factor is inheritance. Since quotas have such a high value, children don't have the cash to pay the taxes and decide to sell.