Azerbaijan allegedly gives Israel access to airbases

[Wezil]

We declared war because of the Japanese attack on us.

I was going to italicize the may as I realise it is debatable, but didn't as I was just too damn lazy. Serves me right.

[Aeson]

Obviously our interests were best served by not having a Nazi (or Soviet) Europe.

[Dr Strangelove]

This of course, disregards the fact that Israel fought a bloody war without any external assistance to secure its own territory proper, unlike, South Korea, for example. Back in the day, no-one could have imagined that territories that were won in a defensive war needed to be returned.

The UN gave Israel 2 truces during which Israel received enough supplies to build an air force and an armored force decidedly superior to those of their opponents. Ironically the Israelis repaid the UN diplomat who managed this for them by executing him.

Yes, everyone raced to recognize the nation of Israel... this is why it had so many allies in the war of independence.

Your supplies came from the US and a Soviet puppet, Czechoslovakia.

By establishing UNRWA, and perpetuating the problem to this very day.

Without UNRWA the refugees would have starved and died. So you think the refugees should have been just left to die? Excellent, now we're getting a better understanding of the true Israeli intentions.

[Az]

The UN gave Israel 2 truces during which Israel received enough supplies to build an air force and an armored force decidedly superior to those of their opponents. Ironically the Israelis repaid the UN diplomat who managed this for them by executing him.

How was the Israeli Armored force superior to the enemy's? It was inferior, being better only in training and morale. The Airforce was better, but hardly "decidedly". In any case, the Lehi assassination of Bernadotte was a shameful crime... but not really representative of

Your supplies came from the US and a Soviet puppet, Czechoslovakia.

We had supplies, but we didn't have allies - These supplies were very hard to procure, especially from the US.

Without UNRWA the refugees would have starved and died. So you think the refugees should have been just left to die? Excellent, now we're getting a better understanding of the true Israeli intentions.

Just like the Jewish refugees from the Arab countries starved and died, without any UN assistance? The second part is not worth dignifying with a response

[Hauldren Collider]

I don't think Doc Strangelove particularly cares which ass pulls he uses to delegitimize Israel, the important thing is that Israelis are the Evil Empire and the Palestians are the Rebel Alliance. Everything else is just rationalization.

[Dinner]

I do wonder why 70 years later the UNRWA is still paying for the great grandkids of those Palestinian refugees. It's long past time to cut the tap off and get those bums to either work for a living or resettle in other Arab countries where they can afford to feed themselves. It's just a crime to have four generations sitting there sucking up handouts as their way of life.

[Dr Strangelove]

How was the Israeli Armored force superior to the enemy's? It was inferior, being better only in training and morale. The Airforce was better, but hardly "decidedly". In any case, the Lehi assassination of Bernadotte was a shameful crime... but not really representative of

Are you kidding me? Israel got American Sherman tanks to pit against Arab R 35's and Matildas? The R 35 and the Matilda were allied tanks obsolete at the very beginning of WW2. The Germans defeated them with armored forces largely composed of Panzer I's and II's, tanks which were nothing more than mobile lightly armored machine gun nests. The M4 Sherman tank was designed to match the German Panzer IV tanks, Germany's main tank through the later phases of WW2. Sherman armor, 75 mm thick, was more than sufficient to repel the machine guns of the primitve 37mm short gun of the R 35 or the machine guns of the Matilda, the Sherman 75 mm gun was quite lethal against the 40mm armor of the other two.

We had supplies, but we didn't have allies - These supplies were very hard to procure, especially from the US.

You got them nevertheless. What is evident is that as the equipment of the Israeli army rapidly grew the equipemnt of the Arab armies did not, though during the truces neither side was supposed to be permitted to re-arm.

Without UNRWA the refugees would have starved and died. So you think the refugees should have been just left to die? Excellent, now we're getting a better understanding of the true Israeli intentions.[/q]
Just like the Jewish refugees from the Arab countries starved and died, without any UN assistance? The second part is not worth dignifying with a response

You mean the one Israel paid to transport to Israel, or the ones before there ever was a UN?

[Al B. Sure!]

I do wonder why 70 years later the UNRWA is still paying for the great grandkids of those Palestinian refugees. It's long past time to cut the tap off and get those bums to either work for a living or resettle in other Arab countries where they can afford to feed themselves. It's just a crime to have four generations sitting there sucking up handouts as their way of life.

Yet Israel keeps demolishing Palestinian homes again and again, demolishing German-supplied solar panels that provided electricity to Palestinian villages, etc. all against the terms of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

[DaShi]

Think of all the construction jobs they are creating in Palestine.

[Dinner]

Yet Israel keeps demolishing Palestinian homes again and again, demolishing German-supplied solar panels that provided electricity to Palestinian villages, etc. all against the terms of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

It's not against any convention to demolish illegally built structures. Just because some goat herder squats on public land doesn't make the land his or the shack he built legal. Of course the legal owner wants his land back and the squatter settlement removed.

[Hauldren Collider]

Yet Israel keeps demolishing Palestinian homes again and again, demolishing German-supplied solar panels that provided electricity to Palestinian villages, etc. all against the terms of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Do you know why Israel demolished palestinian homes? (They don't do it anymore). They did it to punish the families of suicide bombers, who would send their children out to kill Israeli children in order to collect bounties given out by such wonderful figures as Saddam Hussein. Following this, suicide bombings plummeted. But oh noes, the homes! Shut the **** up. They do this stuff to prevent atrocities that would be comically evil if they weren't happening in real life.

[Hauldren Collider]

I do wonder why 70 years later the UNRWA is still paying for the great grandkids of those Palestinian refugees. It's long past time to cut the tap off and get those bums to either work for a living or resettle in other Arab countries where they can afford to feed themselves. It's just a crime to have four generations sitting there sucking up handouts as their way of life.

This is actually a really good point, Oerdin seems to have broken a wrongness streak here. Palestinian "refugees" are not. They're people forced to stay in camps for generations by governments like Syria in order to fuel the PR war against Israel and because they themselves are actually racist against the Palestinians, to a far greater extent than could be credibly claimed of the Israelis.

[regexcellent]

File under "more reasons to de-fund the UN."

[Hauldren Collider]

Are you kidding me? Israel got American Sherman tanks to pit against Arab R 35's and Matildas? The R 35 and the Matilda were allied tanks obsolete at the very beginning of WW2. The Germans defeated them with armored forces largely composed of Panzer I's and II's, tanks which were nothing more than mobile lightly armored machine gun nests. The M4 Sherman tank was designed to match the German Panzer IV tanks, Germany's main tank through the later phases of WW2. Sherman armor, 75 mm thick, was more than sufficient to repel the machine guns of the primitve 37mm short gun of the R 35 or the machine guns of the Matilda, the Sherman 75 mm gun was quite lethal against the 40mm armor of the other two. You got them nevertheless. What is evident is that as the equipment of the Israeli army rapidly grew the equipemnt of the Arab armies did not, though during the truces neither side was supposed to be permitted to re-arm.You mean the one Israel paid to transport to Israel, or the ones before there ever was a UN?

Blah blah blah. Let's get into the nitty gritty details of the '48 war, yadda yadda. What the **** is your point? Why is Israel bad? Why do you hate it so much? What's so bad about the fact that we supplied Jews to prevent a second holocaust? And do you really think the Israelis didn't beat the odds just by surviving this long? You don't like Israel, we get it, but give real goddamn reason for it instead of just picking at random little things Israel did over the years that don't sparkle with purity.

[regexcellent]

Violating cease fire and truce terms to re-arm is an old-established tradition practiced by virtually every combatant that has ever made such an agreement.

[Wezil]

That's what cease fires are for. Clear out the dead/wounded, reload and have at it.

[regexcellent]

Damn straight

[Al B. Sure!]

(They don't do it anymore).

Last month, the order came to demolish houses in Khirbat al Taweel:

The Civil Administration issued the most recent demolition orders two weeks ago.

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-...-life-1.410809

So they don't do it anymore?

They did it to punish the families of suicide bombers

So you believe in collective punishment.

Let's see what the laws of war say:

No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.

Pillage is prohibited.

Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited.

-Convention (IV) relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, Geneva, 12 August 1949, Part III : Status and treatment of protected persons, Section I : Provisions common to the territories of the parties to the conflict and to occupied territories, Article 33

Any destruction by the Occupying Power of real or personal property belonging individually or collectively to private persons, or to the State, or to other public authorities, or to social or cooperative organizations, is prohibited, except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations.

-Convention (IV) relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, Geneva, 12 August 1949, Part III : Status and treatment of protected persons, Section III: Occupied Territories, Article 53

[Hauldren Collider]

Last month, the order came to demolish houses in Khirbat al Taweel:



http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-...-life-1.410809

So they don't do it anymore?

I was referring to the bulldozing. Enforcing eminent domain or whatever that is is something we do here, too, and it's definitely not against the geneva conventions. It's actually in the constitution!

So you believe in collective punishment.

I believe in getting results, and I also believe it's hard to punish dead people. Furthermore I believe that it's totally reasonable to find people culpable for something when they collect payment for it.

So some people lost their homes, and a lot less kids died. Now tell me with a straight face that this is a tragedy.

[Hauldren Collider]

I imagine if General Sherman had one of these, it would get Alby hard:

[Wezil]

Damn I like dark humour.

[Hauldren Collider]

The bulldozers are strangely hilarious. I kinda hate myself for thinking they're funny, it's sort of like admiring the killdozer guy.

[Wezil]

That's the thing about dark humour. You know you shouldn't laugh but you just can't help yourself.

It goes in the category of "forbidden laughter" as George Carlin used to call it - like laughing in Church.

[Al B. Sure!]

Then you are in a fairly small minority of Americans.

The interesting thing is this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1401282.html

a new poll indicates Israel is not the top political issue of American Jews, with only 4 percent calling it the most important factor in their vote.

The poll also showed Jewish voters' strong support for Obama. Twice as many said they would vote for Obama over a GOP candidate. That level of support is nearly unchanged from the same point during Obama's first presidential run.

"About three out of four American Jews voted Democratic in 2008," Wald said. "Something relatively similar is likely to occur in 2012."

Why does the GOP even bother with pandering to the Jewish lobby? They're going to vote for Obama anyway.

[Hauldren Collider]

What makes you assume they're pandering? And what makes you assume that if they are pandering, they're pandering to jews? People across the political spectrum and demographics approve of Israel. It's not some small special interest group. It's a vast majority of the entire American electorate.

[regexcellent]

Dude, I'm not talking about American Jews. Look at any gallup polls in the last 15 ****ing years and you will see that Americans overwhelmingly support Israel. It might not be the #1 priority for all of them but it is a priority.

[Al B. Sure!]

I was referring to the bulldozing. Enforcing eminent domain or whatever that is is something we do here, too, and it's definitely not against the geneva conventions. It's actually in the constitution!

It's the same thing South Africa did with the Homeland system and the forced removals. The same justifications that were used for the demolishing of Sophiatown are being used today by the Israel government.

Those in power can find superficially legal means to get what they want.

[Al B. Sure!]

The formatting of this is funny from where I copied and pasted it, but it describes the legal background for the removals in South Africa:

The 1913 Act severely limited land
ownership by Blacks and drove them to demarcated reserves,
derisively referred to as "Bantustans."
In the Act, Blacks
were restricted to 7% of the total area of the Union of South
Africa, while Whites were granted the remaining 93% of the
land.
The Act also prohibited land transactions between
"Black(s)" and "person(s) other than Blacks" in the areas
outside of the reserves.
Prohibited transactions included
sharecropping and squatting, which effectively transformed the
Black South Africans who lived in rural areas outside of the
reserves into wage or tenant laborers for White farmers.
The South African Parliament amended the 1913 Act with
the Native Land and Trust Act of 1936.
The 1936 Act slightly
increased the land available for Blacks in the reserves to a little
over 13.6% of the country's surface area.
However, the 1936
Act further dispossessed Black South Africans by denying them
direct ownership of the reserve land.
The statute substituted
individual land ownership with ownership by the South African
Development Trust, a government body that purchased land in
the released areas for "Black settlement."

It was the SA Development Trust in SA; now it's the Israel Land Administration in Israel but the hustle is the same.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...salem-1.280392

When an Israeli citizen purchases an apartment or house, ownership of the land remains with the ILA, which leases it to the purchaser for a period of 49 years, enabling the registration of the home ("tabu"). Article 19 of the ILA lease specifies that a foreign national cannot lease - much less own - ILA land.

Attorney Yael Azoulay, of Zeev and Naomi Weil Lawyers and Notary Office, explains that if a foreign national purchases an apartment they must show the ILA proof of eligibility to immigrate to Israel in accordance with the Law of Return. Non-Jewish foreigners cannot purchase apartments. This group includes Palestinians from the east of the city, who have Israeli identity cards but are residents rather than citizens of Israel.

Most residences in West Jerusalem and in the Jewish neighborhoods of East Jerusalem are built on ILA land. All the neighborhoods built after 1967 - Gilo, Pisgat Ze'ev, Ramot, French Hill and Armon Hanatziv - are built on ILA land. Even in the older neighborhoods of Kiryat Hayovel, Katamonim and Beit Hakerem, tens of thousands of apartments are built on ILA land and cannot be sold to Palestinians.

Not really seeing what's different there

[Aeson]

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-...-life-1.410809

"The Khirbet al-Tawil compound is located in Area C, and has an agricultural designation. Part of it is under a military closure order and in fire zones, and was built without permits and contrary to the master plan.

"Over the years, 28 stop-work orders were delivered for illegal construction.

"During 2011 two stop-work orders were delivered for a pen and a tent, on behalf of which an application for a building permit had been filed. The application was rejected in a hearing before the supervisory subcommittee, and a 30-day extension was granted to restore the property to its previous condition, or any other step that the proprietors see fit.

"During 2012 one stop-work order has been delivered against a tent that serves as a storage space, and since a legal building permit was not presented, the supervisory subcommittee decided to issue a final demolition order for the structure, while granting a 30-day extension."

WTF? They need to hold hearings, have subcommittees, issue building permits... for ****ing tents?

[Al B. Sure!]

WTF? They need to hold hearings, have subcommittees, issue building permits... for ****ing tents?

Dude, they demolish solar panels:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-dev...e-solar-panels

According to the Israeli authorities, these solar panels – along with six others in nearby villages – are illegal and have been slated for demolition.

Imneizil's solar system was built in 2009 by the Spanish NGO Seba at a cost of €30,000 to the Spanish government. According to the Israeli authorities, it was built without a permit.

The Jewish settlements in Area C are connected to the national water and electricity grids. But most Palestinian villages are cut off from basic infrastructure, including water and sewage services. Imneizil, which borders the ultra-religious settlement of Beit Yatir, currently has nine demolition orders on various structures, including a toilet block and water cistern for the school.

Comet ME is an Israeli NGO trying to circumvent these crippling restrictions on Palestinian development by harnessing Hebron's abundant natural energy sources – wind and sun.

Funded largely by the German government, the organisation has already provided tens of Palestinian villages with electricity through solar panels and wind turbines. Its goal is to reach all villages in the southern Hebron area by the end of 2013.

After the order issued against the Imneizil solar panels in September, six alternative energy systems built by Comet ME in Hebron have received demolition orders.

So because of restrictions, solar power is the only means to give Palestinian villages power but the Israeli government is demolishing these foreign-funded solar panels...