Pros and Cons of Proving God Exists?

Mojotronica · December 20, 2011, 19:28

Maybe we are so focused on whether or not we CAN prove God exists, we don't stop to think if we SHOULD prove God exists.

Here are two pros and two cons to think about.

Pros:

1. If we prove God exist that will likely lead to more church attendance and revenue for the churches and their charitable work.

2. Transforms our existential dilemma into a simple set of rules to obey and goals to work towards.

Cons:

1. It makes the idea of "faith" obsolete. You can't have faith in something that you know. You can only have faith in things you don't know, once you know it, it becomes certainty. If you think of faith as the core principle of Christianity, than proving God exists actually destroys Christianity.

2. Maybe the existential dilemma is the point.

Feel free to add more pros and cons to my starters. The point of this thread isn't to debate, just to make a long list of pros and cons. We're not in the proving God exists business, we're in the listing pros and cons of proving God exists business, and cousin, business is booming.

Jon Miller · December 20, 2011, 19:35

I don't think you understand 'faith'.

JM

kentonio · December 20, 2011, 19:36

Originally Posted by Mojotronica

Pros:

1. If we prove God exist that will likely lead to more church attendance and revenue for the churches and their charitable work.

2. Transforms our existential dilemma into a simple set of rules to obey and goals to work towards.

I think you accidentally put those under pro instead of con. I'm confused by why 1) enriching the church even further and 2) everyone following a zombielike path, would be good things.

Originally Posted by Mojotronica

Cons:

1. It makes the idea of "faith" obsolete. You can't have faith in something that you know. You can only have faith in things you don't know, once you know it, it becomes certainty. If you think of faith as the core principle of Christianity, than proving God exists actually destroys Christianity.

If faith mattered a ****, then Jesus would never have carried out miracles.

Originally Posted by Mojotronica

Feel free to add more pros and cons to my starters. The point of this thread isn't to debate, just to make a long list of pros and cons.

Sounds dull, debating other peoples ones sounds better.

Kidicious · December 20, 2011, 19:54

I don't think God allows us to know objectively (prove) he exists. We can speculate on why, but having faith isn't just believing things when we don't have proof. It's humbling ourselves and knowing who we truly are and what our relatktionship to God is.

Kidicious · December 20, 2011, 20:20

Also, I wonder what proof would actually be. Would it be seeing God? Some people would surely say that he's not God, just a powerfull being from another universe or something.

Zoetstofzoetje · December 20, 2011, 21:06

we should try to get in touch with Nietzsche about this, he should know by now

DaShi · December 20, 2011, 23:31

If we knew God existed we'd have "faith" that he wouldn't flatten us on a whim.

Imran Siddiqui · December 21, 2011, 00:08

Originally Posted by Mojotronica

2. Transforms our existential dilemma into a simple set of rules to obey and goals to work towards.

This doesn't follow from proving God. Well, I guess it depends on which God. The Christian view of God is not some rule maker (regardless of what some would make of Him).

Kidicious · December 21, 2011, 00:56

Serious question Imran, do you believe in the part about the 10 commandments and all that?

Imran Siddiqui · December 21, 2011, 01:03

What do you mean the part about the 10 Commandments and all that? That He gave them to the Israelites? Interestingly enough when Jesus comes around later He says that all the law can be summarized in his 2 Commandments - love God with all your heart, mind, and soul and love your neighbor as yourself. The Jews, due to Jesus not being around yet, had an imperfect view of God, though they tried as best they can. I believe that it was Moses's attempt to encapsulate God's desires after talking with Him. Interestingly enough, scholarly view is that the 10 Commandments appear to resemble a marriage contract in the Ancient Near East (hence all the jealous God stuff and all that).

Berzerker · December 21, 2011, 01:12

If faith mattered a ****, then Jesus would never have carried out miracles

I remember a passage where Jesus laments mankind's lack of faith, always in need of signs or evidence

Kidicious · December 21, 2011, 01:27

Originally Posted by Imran Siddiqui

What do you mean the part about the 10 Commandments and all that? That He gave them to the Israelites? Interestingly enough when Jesus comes around later He says that all the law can be summarized in his 2 Commandments - love God with all your heart, mind, and soul and love your neighbor as yourself. The Jews, due to Jesus not being around yet, had an imperfect view of God, though they tried as best they can. I believe that it was Moses's attempt to encapsulate God's desires after talking with Him. Interestingly enough, scholarly view is that the 10 Commandments appear to resemble a marriage contract in the Ancient Near East (hence all the jealous God stuff and all that).

You didn't really answer my question directly. Do you believe the 10 commandments came from God?

You seem to be saying that the 10 commandments are inferior to their summary given by Jesus. How can that be?

Also, yes the Isrealites didn't understand God perfectly, nobody does. Despite the fact that God's own son came to teach us the way we all still do it our own way. God have mercyon us.

Bugs ****ing Bunny · December 21, 2011, 01:39

You'd think that, if God was both omnipotent and all-loving, he'd have sorted out these communication problems thousands of years ago, right?

Kidicious · December 21, 2011, 02:17

Good question. Why did He create time?

Aeson · December 21, 2011, 03:35

Pros: Jesus, Mohammed
Cons: Jim Bakker, Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart

BeBro · December 21, 2011, 06:46

Assuming we talk about scientific proof, and assuming it was possible to get that - it would end religion by turning it into science. I can't decide if that's a pro or con.

Imran Siddiqui · December 21, 2011, 11:08

Originally Posted by Kidicious

You didn't really answer my question directly. Do you believe the 10 commandments came from God?

You seem to be saying that the 10 commandments are inferior to their summary given by Jesus. How can that be?

Also, yes the Isrealites didn't understand God perfectly, nobody does. Despite the fact that God's own son came to teach us the way we all still do it our own way. God have mercyon us.

I didn't answer your question directly because I was asking exactly what you were saying. And yes, I do think the 10 Commandments are inferior to Jesus's summary of the law - Jesus is the perfect revelation, everything else pales in comparison. I think the principles in the 10 Commandments are Godly principles and came directly from God, HOWEVER, I think that God doesn't demand slavish obedience, but a heartfelt desire to please him, as you would wish to please a spouse (you do stuff for him/her because you love).

MikeH · December 21, 2011, 11:23

Thread title should be "Gods exist"?

loinburger · December 21, 2011, 11:30

Originally Posted by Kidicious

Some people would surely say that he's not God, just a powerfull being from another universe or something.

Would it really matter if God was "just" a powerful being from another universe or something? Would you suddenly say "well **** God, if he's not some white bearded dude living on a cloud then I'm not worshiping him!"

MikeH · December 21, 2011, 11:31

What would be the difference between the two things anyway? How could you tell?

loinburger · December 21, 2011, 11:34

Any sufficiently advanced being is indistinguishable from God

Lorizael · December 21, 2011, 11:54

Thanks, Arthur.

BeBro · December 21, 2011, 11:57

Prime example: Obama

MikeH · December 21, 2011, 12:05

or closer to home, KrazyHorse.

BeBro · December 21, 2011, 12:08

I thought KH was more a deified hero, kinda like Hercules who was taken to the Olymp. Could be wrong though. If only there's someone doing the balance between everything I'm ok with the universe.

MikeH · December 21, 2011, 12:14

Hercules was a demigod in the first place though.

No-one has proven that KH is not the son of Zeus.

BeBro · December 21, 2011, 12:19

True. I think this is an interesting topic and will start a separate thread about this asap.

Imran Siddiqui · December 21, 2011, 12:28

Originally Posted by loinburger

Would it really matter if God was "just" a powerful being from another universe or something? Would you suddenly say "well **** God, if he's not some white bearded dude living on a cloud then I'm not worshiping him!"

Yes. God being the Creator of everything and the love He shares for his Creation results in a relationship where one wants to please his loving Creator by doing what He may ask of us - like sacrificing to help others, because we are all brothers and sisters all originating from the Creator. If the guy is just a powerful being who didn't create us, that leap is bit harder - why care for others that deeply? That's a bit more difficult.

loinburger · December 21, 2011, 12:33

I don't see the distinction. If a powerful alien said "Hey, I've been thinking about this for the past few billion years, and have concluded that loving each other is better than hating each other," then that would carry more weight with me than a Creator saying "Hey, I made y'all, now love each other to please me." The former is "worshiping" a being because of its presumed wisdom, while the latter is worshiping a being because of its presumed power.

Lorizael · December 21, 2011, 12:38

Originally Posted by Imran Siddiqui

Yes. God being the Creator of everything and the love He shares for his Creation results in a relationship where one wants to please his loving Creator by doing what He may ask of us - like sacrificing to help others, because we are all brothers and sisters all originating from the Creator. If the guy is just a powerful being who didn't create us, that leap is bit harder - why care for others that deeply? That's a bit more difficult.

There are finer distinctions. Say that the universe is actually a computer simulation within a different universe that operates under different physical laws. An alien created our simulated universe, and all of us, with the specific purpose of implementing Christian morality. The alien also imbued human agents of the simulation with free will - that is, they can make decisions which break the rules of the simulation. Is this alien just a really powerful alien, or is this alien God?