Destiny of Empires II [Organization Thread]

[OzzyKP]

Destiny of Empires II Players LIST!


1. OzzyKP
2. Kenshin2
3. 1889
4. Dick76
5. LzPrst
6. MNGoldenEagle
7. Jehoshua
8. Black Knight 427
9. Calanthian
10. Toni
11. DNK
12.


I think this just about closes us out for the game. We could squeeze in a 12th (2metra, you want in?) but otherwise I think we're full. I propose we have the following civs be under human control:

England
France
Spain
Germany
Russia
Byzantines
India
Khmer
China
Korea
Japan

If we go to 12 then we add Mongolia (I think they are in a better position then the Vikings).

[2metraninja]

Now I see that normally there is no way to set the AIs dificulties - it always says "noble", no matter what you set for yourself.

[OzzyKP]

Yea, normally. But in a map/mod, you can set them yourself. In the default 1000 AD scenario, for example, the Arabs are set at Deity, and I assume that is a handicap for them since they start out with such a strong position at the beginning. But I'm not totally sure.

[2metraninja]

I am not sure about the set-up. I started the scenario once and it did not looked too balanced to me. And are we leaving the poor muslims completely to the AIs to be slaughtered?

You are already 11, If I, Mzprox, Sommerswerd, Beta and Robert join, we will be 16, just couple short of full scale 18 epic diplo-game, dont you think it will be great?

[OzzyKP]

Because of the balance issues I think it'd be better if there are several AIs. Arabs start off ridiculously overpowered. And in a normal game they are always extremely strong while being set on deity, drop their difficulty to noble (which, if we are right, makes them harder) and they should be a decent enemy for us humans.

As for more people, well we've been trying to get more for months now, and instead of continuing to wait forever to fill up the game (as we originally planned), we're just going to go ahead with who we have, otherwise the game will never start. All the rest of you have been invited several times and haven't responded, so now is your last chance. I'm going to work on the mod today and then we can start tomorrow or Monday.

These games die in the crib when there is too much discussion on settings, too much waiting around for players to confirm, too much indecision early on. So we're going ahead with this. You in or out?

[2metraninja]

the Arabs are set at Deity, and I assume that is a handicap for them since they start out with such a strong position at the beginning.

I think it is exactly the opposite - to give the Arab AI some chance against the whole bunch of Christians who are at war with them and are crusading. If a player chooses to play as the Arabs, I think he just plays the dificulty he choose when setting up the game.

[OzzyKP]

Hmm, maybe we can't individually set the AI difficulty. At least I'm not sure about it.

[DNK]

galley 4
trireme 4
caravel 5
galleon 5
frigate 6
privateer 6
SotL 5
ironclad 6
transport 6
destroyer 8 (promo)
battleship 6 (promo)
carrier 6 (promo)
sub 6
attack sub 7
missile cruiser 6 (promo)
stealth destroyer 10 (promo)

2x for coastal tiles

This scheme retains most of the original balance, doesn't make invasion fleets too fast, and allows for some faster travel over oceans, and makes naval strategy a bit more complicated than "just send your invasion fleet across an entire ocean in 1 turn".

I would also suggest upping ships' sight to 3 tiles with Optics rather than 2 given they can travel much farther.

[Jehoshua]

Players go on Noble. AI's go on noble, or the level below noble.

Balance and fairness are arbitrary and ultimately illusory constructs in a multi-player game and I suggest that instead of dithering about trying to create some non-existent "fairness" and "balance" you get this bloody thing rolling, its taken enough time as it is.

As to ships, just deal with the standards within the unmodified game and go with it. Bickering over detail is quite frankly absurd and detracts from what everyone really wants, which is to PLAY THE GAME!

[Carthage (DoF)]

@Jehoshua: have you really looked into the scenario? It is not that we start with a clean sheet.. Some civs have 6 cities, some 3..

All players on noble is not how the scenario is intended, and while the game doesn't need to be balanced, it is also not good if it is massively unbalanced.

[DNK]

I'm fine with no ship mod. It's preferential to one that's unbalanced (imo) for me. The fewer mods, the less likelihood of complaints. I think it's assumed we're going with the no-score mod again. Altering the known tech bonus is probably the only other thing in consideration, and I seem to be the only one considering it, though interest has been voiced a few times previously in this set-up and in G&H's setup, so I figure it's at least an issue worth discussing.

--------------------

Jeho, it's a lot better to spend an extra few days evening things out than to have people dropping 2 months in when they realize that, in fact, things are stacked against them and they find no pleasure in the scenario anymore (regardless of what they were feeling before the game started). The big killer isn't so much maintaining interest in the couple of weeks leading up to the game, but for the 14+ months after it has started. Ensuring that everyone will be relatively even a year in is important to that. Obviously, we can't expect everyone to be within 5% of each other, but that doesn't mean we should accept people having 25% or 30% of the economy of their peers. Even though some players are far more casual, and therefore less effective, than others, such disparities can be prevented fairly well by a good setup.

I don't want to self-congratulate, but I think DoF managed to keep everyone fairly even up until the renaissance period, and that's because a ton of effort went into creating balanced starts and resources and such throughout the editing and setup process. In this case, you just want us to select the premade scenario and click "launch"... it's not going to end well, I think, especially in this case where it's not really tuned for MP.

I'm all for starting soon, but if many players (myself included) are concerned over balance, it's not something you can pave over at the start and expect not to return sometime down the line. Personally, I'll play through as I'm more interested in the RP/storytelling aspect, but I want to avoid having to deal with the "my start isn't fair" or "his start is overpowered, and we never have a chance" complaints that will roll in as soon as things get rolling (and those will kill interest, substitutability, and the game itself in short order). Also, storytelling works a lot better when players aren't demoralized by a crap situation. That is impossible to stop altogether, but we should do all we can to minimize it at the outset.

I appreciate your concerns over starting soon, given how long this had dragged out already, but when like 30-40% of the players are discussing something, it ipso facto becomes important to the game.

[DNK]

I also fail to see how fairness is an arbitrary construct in an MP game, or why it being an MP game alters map balance to the point it ceases to exist. If one player starts on a desert island with 5 tiles and 4 neighbors pinning him in, and the other starts amidst an endless expanse of green, bonus-rich plains, well... Some of the starts feel about as much as that in this scenario upon a quick inspection.

[OzzyKP]

Guys, guys, relax, we're launching today.

Made lower as noble > noble
Higher as monarch > monarch, so:

China - Monarch
Japan - Monarch
France - Noble
Arabia - Monarch
Spain - Noble
England - Noble
HRE - Noble
Russia - Noble
Mali - Monarch
Incas - Noble
Mongolia - Noble
Aztecs - Monarch
Byzantium - Monarch
Vikings - Noble
India - Monarch
Khmer - Noble
Korea - Monarch

I'm going with this, sadly it might not apply to the AI, but it'll help balance the players at least. I'll go with the no score mod but skip any changes to ship movement and tech.

Can someone PM me a randomized list of these civs:

England
France
Spain
Germany
Russia
Byzantines
India
Khmer
China
Korea
Japan

And can someone else PM me a randomized list of these players:

OzzyKP
Kenshin2
1889
Dick76
LzPrst
MNGoldenEagle
Jehoshua
Black Knight 427
Calanthian
Toni
DNK

[Kenshin2]

I agree with the most recent mods purposed by DNK. I also think that if someone volunteers to be the Arabs we should give it to them, but we certainly shouldn't throw them in with the rest for randomizing. I am not sure about the whole difficulties thing, but I am for whatever makes the game more fun. If it is delayed though we shouldn't let it last more then another week; wouldn't want sign-ups to lose interest.

[OzzyKP]

Well the sooner someone gets me a randomized list the sooner we can get started.

[Kenshin2]

I was going to but I didn't have enough posts. Couldn't you just use the list randomizer on random.org?

[1889]

Randomized Civs sent

[Black Knight 427]

randomized player list sent

[Carthage (DoF)]

Ozzy put the no score mod in, just as in DoF and G&H. This is tested and really helps to even things out..
(and with that no score mod, the tech bonus is also changed in favour of the ones lagging behind)

[OzzyKP]

Thanks Black Knight and 1889! Everyone has a civ now:



OzzyKP - Byzantines
DNK - France
Dick76 - England
Jehoshua - Russia
1889 - India
LzPrst - Khmer
MNGoldenEagle - Korea
Black Knight 427 - Japan
Calanthian - China
Toni - Germany
Kenshin2 - Spain

Haha, Black Knight gets to be Japan again.

But if anyone wants to swap their civ with someone, see if you can find someone to switch with you before we start.

[Black Knight 427]

Geez with all the times Ive been japan i should win this game

[OzzyKP]

You can always swap if you can find someone to trade. And I promise I won't sail across the globe and start colonizing Australia before you get there this time, haha. But you do now have Korea and Khmer to contend with now..

But ok, the no score mod should be easy to put together. The game goes pretty fast, do people want to do Epic speed? And I assume no tech trading, correct?

[Kenshin2]

Definitely Epic. I never play on normal speeds.

[OzzyKP]

Ok, mod is all set. Very simple, just the no score mod from DoF and G&H:

http://apolyton.net/attachment.php?a...1&d=1331501889

I'l get it over to WPC and get this game underway!

[1889]

Did we decide on to set the turn timer to?

[OzzyKP]

I told them to set it at 48 hours for the first turn and 22 hours thereafter.

[DNK]

Carthage, there is no tech modifier in G&H, only DoF. DoF is at 100%, G&H is at the vanilla 30%. DoE2 now has 100% included with the mod.

[DNK]

So, what options are we using? What are the ground rules for this? Are we able to take cities in Europe or is there a "gentleman's agreement" to refrain from that given any one city is like 30% of a civ there?

Highly suggest no random events.

[2metraninja]

Sigh, I will miss you guys in this one. And Jehoshua, take good care of Mother Russia!

[Jehoshua]

For the mod (I don't customarily use mods and am rather poor when it comes to technological knowledge) I just drag the folder into the MODS folder where all the other BTS documents right and it will download and work with the game?

Oh and on a previous point I do understand the nature of a 1000AD game and how its inherently severely skewed. The thing is I just don't care about balance whatsoever It is my belief that people (and myself) should be thrown totally thrown into the deep end every once in a while, and make the best of totally terrible situations using all the tools at their disposal. As such I think it is good that we have the mali's of the world trying to eke out a living while someone else lives it up in a strong empire to start with.