Monarch and war

[Kirov]

Hello, I got back to Civ4 after a longer while (Civ5 failed to impress me and I see it's not only me) and run into a problem with gameplay.

I beat the Prince level fairly easily and moved up a notch. Everything would be fine if not for the fact that Monarch seems to be all about war. I tried several approaches (in terms of aggressiveness) in several settings and no matter what I do, I always end up in a long long war. Now, I don't mind a small AI stomping every now and then, but when I find myself building military units for the better part of the game it gets quite boring (and I don't find Civ warfare too fascinating).

How can I get my wars as short as possible? Even axemen rush takes enough time spent not building up that I lag behind. Later on it only gets worse.

What do I do wrong? Usually I get 5 cities, try to rush my first neighbour and then willy-nilly have tensions with other AI's, with research already slowed down considerably (even with courthouses/libs in place). With a handful of experienced units it seems I have no option but to push farther... and before I clean up my continent, I wake up in the 19th century or sth. And it's not what the Civ series is about, if you ask me. I miss warmongering in SMAC, with its customized units, nice espionage options and zones of control.

One thing is, when I start a war, I try not to end it without annihilation/vassalization. Otherwise the problem at your border persists and you'll never be able to direct resources somewhere else, as my logic goes. And there are always so many 'annoyed' AI's around you, I just can't stand them being annoyed.

So, is focusing on blitzkrieg early on the only way to get relatively stable peace later in the game? What are your thoughts?

Oh, one more thing - at what time on Monarch do you expect to grab the tech lead?

[Thoth]

Hello, I got back to Civ4 after a longer while (Civ5 failed to impress me and I see it's not only me) and run into a problem with gameplay.

I beat the Prince level fairly easily and moved up a notch. Everything would be fine if not for the fact that Monarch seems to be all about war. I tried several approaches (in terms of aggressiveness) in several settings and no matter what I do, I always end up in a long long war. Now, I don't mind a small AI stomping every now and then, but when I find myself building military units for the better part of the game it gets quite boring (and I don't find Civ warfare too fascinating).

How can I get my wars as short as possible? Even axemen rush takes enough time spent not building up that I lag behind. Later on it only gets worse.

What do I do wrong? Usually I get 5 cities, try to rush my first neighbour and then willy-nilly have tensions with other AI's, with research already slowed down considerably (even with courthouses/libs in place). With a handful of experienced units it seems I have no option but to push farther... and before I clean up my continent, I wake up in the 19th century or sth. And it's not what the Civ series is about, if you ask me. I miss warmongering in SMAC, with its customized units, nice espionage options and zones of control.

One thing is, when I start a war, I try not to end it without annihilation/vassalization. Otherwise the problem at your border persists and you'll never be able to direct resources somewhere else, as my logic goes. And there are always so many 'annoyed' AI's around you, I just can't stand them being annoyed.

So, is focusing on blitzkrieg early on the only way to get relatively stable peace later in the game? What are your thoughts?

Oh, one more thing - at what time on Monarch do you expect to grab the tech lead?

A 5 city axe rush is going to be far too late to be effective even on Monarch. If you have the land to expand to 5 decent cities (I'm assuming a Standard map) Catapult based wars are far more hammer effective. If you have a neighbour that is close enough to axe rush, aim for 3 cities MAX before you rush.

Courthouses suck. Don't build them until your cities are costing 8+ gpt in maintenance. Build Wealth/Research instead. (Currency is a far, far better economy tech than COL).

As far as specific advice regarding what you are doing wrong, it's hard to say without having a look at some save games.

Next time you start a game, upload the 4000BC save + saves from `1k BC and 1 AD. Most advice is specific to the situation you find yourself in wrt to terrain, leader, civ and neighbours.

[Kirov]

This I did. I picked Khmer for Creative/Expansive (I find these traits quite useful).

I tried and, well, succeeded at the axe rush with 3 cities. However, I'm still unhappy about the hammer/supply cost of such a war. Taking down one city without cats seems like a huge drain. Especially if it is the second city in your path and the AI managed to crank out several archers.

One thought - maybe I should split a given conflict into several wars, interrupted with peace for better preparation? I've always had "let's finish him once and for all" approach.

Should I put Barracks in place for an axe rush? Is the answer different for aggresive and non-aggresive civs?

Could you elaborate on what you said about courthouses, currency, etc.? I still try to grab the Oracle for COL. I didn't hurry with courthouses this time, but they sure seem useful.

I always hesitate with research after COL. Usually I turn to Construction for cats, elephants and mathematics on the way. This time I wanted Feudalism for capitulation, but regretted it afterwars. Any thoughts on that?

Many thanks for you response and help.

[Thoth]

This I did. I picked Khmer for Creative/Expansive (I find these traits quite useful).

Agreed. Exp and Cre are awesome early game traits. The combination will get you off to a very fast start.

I tried and, well, succeeded at the axe rush with 3 cities. However, I'm still unhappy about the hammer/supply cost of such a war. Taking down one city without cats seems like a huge drain. Especially if it is the second city in your path and the AI managed to crank out several archers.

I've played your 4000 BC save out to 1140 AD. I see no reason to rush on this map. You have some very good land (and some very shitty land ). William needs to be eliminated, but he doesn't have to go right away. Let him build some wonders or found a religion or two before taking him out.

One thought - maybe I should split a given conflict into several wars, interrupted with peace for better preparation? I've always had "let's finish him once and for all" approach.

I managed to extort Archery, Iron Working and Calendar as the price for peace once I got around to thumping William (circa 300AD). Definitely worth delaying his final extinction.

Should I put Barracks in place for an axe rush? Is the answer different for aggresive and non-aggresive civs?

Barracks in your main unit pump (usually the Capital) yes. In your secondary cities....maybe. If you are agg then the barracks is dirt cheap, otherwise consider the value of an extra axe or two vs the value of a promotion. It's a situational thing.

Could you elaborate on what you said about courthouses, currency, etc.? I still try to grab the Oracle for COL. I didn't hurry with courthouses this time, but they sure seem useful.

I didn't build a single courthouse until after 1000 AD. They simply aren't worth the hammers until you are paying at least 8gpt (after inflation). Currency gets you +1 trade routes per city (meaning at least 1 commerce per city) without spending a single hammer. It also gives you the ability to build Wealth if you are really stuck for Gold.

I always hesitate with research after COL. Usually I turn to Construction for cats, elephants and mathematics on the way. This time I wanted Feudalism for capitulation, but regretted it afterwars. Any thoughts on that?

Many thanks for you response and help.

After COL....Civil Service for chain irrigation and Buerocracy is a good choice if you aren't planning a war in the near future. If you are planning a war, then skip COL and head straight for Math and Construction. Then head to Currency.

I'll give your other saves a look and add some commentary in a bit.

[Thoth]

Hmm.

Took a look at your other saves.

A few notes:

1) Good job on the early workers. Not enough workers is a common mistake.

2) Capital placement: I'm not sure why you moved to the coast without any seafood in sight. Coastal tiles are very weak compared to land tiles, you lost potential in your capital and lost a crucial early game turn by moving.

3) Tech path: AH before Ag was a mistake. You have irrigated Rice in your capital's fat cross. Rice isn't as good a tile as corn, but it's a better food tile than the Cows. (Food is the strongest resource in the game and should always be a priority). You also lost beakers by going AH first. AH has Ag and Hunting as pre-requisites. If you had teched AG first, you would have gotten an additional 20% boost to your research towards AH. Beakers are a precious resource, spend them carefully.

4) City placement: Your second city had no food resource at all unless it used the capital's Cows. You would have been better off to place the city either on the Copper or 1 SE of the copper (both locations get access to the Fish resource)

5) City builds: In your 275 BC save all of your cities are trying to build courthouses. Your maximum city maintenance is less than 5gpt. More settlers/workers would do you more good than 80h courthouses.

6) Tile improvements: Not enough capital cottages. Your workers are building farms for your capital which already has sufficient food surplus. Get some cottages in play for your capital ASAP instead. Once Civil Service is in they will pay for themselves very quickly.

7) Great People: You've obviously put some effort into producing some early GPs, but an early Acadamy is almost always stronger than a Shrine. Skip the shrines in favour of GS's whenever possible. +50% Science in the Capital is almost always worth more than a shrine.

[Thoth]

BTW: the folks who are looking at Kirov's and my save games are welcome to comment.

[Gertrude]

A 5 city axe rush is going to be far too late to be effective even on Monarch. If you have the land to expand to 5 decent cities (I'm assuming a Standard map) Catapult based wars are far more hammer effective. If you have a neighbour that is close enough to axe rush, aim for 3 cities MAX before you rush.

Are able to provide any pointers what to build for an early catapult war please? Can you give me a general idea of what you would do if you could build catapults, spearmen and axemen for an early war (say when you have your 5 cities). I am sorry this is rather vague. I have trouble with early attacks.

[Thoth]

Are able to provide any pointers what to build for an early catapult war please? Can you give me a general idea of what you would do if you could build catapults, spearmen and axemen for an early war (say when you have your 5 cities). I am sorry this is rather vague. I have trouble with early attacks.

By "early" I assume you're talking about hitting your target around turn 100-110. Depending on the leader and the land, I'd aim for 4-5 cities (if you have the room to expand to more than 5 good cities then you are probably better off to skip the early war and expand peacefully). Techs: Food techs, Bronze, wheel, pottery, writing, masonry, math, construction plus iron working if you don't have copper. (Although if you have horses and no copper, a Horse Archer rush is probably better than teching out to IW/Construction).

You'll want granaries in all of your cities (for whip recovery...once construction is in you'll be whipping your cities hard to get cats built), 1-2 libraries (both for the bonus beakers and to generate a GS either for an Academy or to bulb Math), two barracks is likely enough unless your cities are very productive.

You'll need enough workers to ensure that your cities are all working improved tiles at their happy cap and to chop any and all forests once Construction is in.

Force composition: Aim for 10-12 cats + supporting axes and a few spears for mounted defence. Depending on your opponent 6-8 axes and 2-3 spears is probably enough. These units get built while teching Math/Construction.

The key here (as with any rush) is speed. You'll have two bottlenecks: Technology (hence the libraries and the scientists) and production. Most of your cats will be produced via whipping and chopping. With 4 cities you can crank out your dozen cats within 4/5 turns depending on how many forests you have.

Once your initial force is built you'll need a steady supply of reinforcements to garrison your captured cities. Catapult losses vs archers will tend to be low unless you are facing Protective archers on hills, so you won't need too many replacement cats.

After Construction has been teched set your research slider to zero and set research to either Currency (for the extra trade route and the ability to build Wealth) or Alphabet (needed if you want to extort techs from your victim and allows you to build Research to get to Currency). Your costs are going to skyrocket due to increased military support plus the extra city maintenance from your conquests. Once you have enough cash saved up to tech to Currency/Alphabet at 100% tech, turn research back on. City capture gold will help a lot with this.


Obviously there isn't one strict forumla for doing a cat rush as each map/leader combination plays differently but as a general outline, the above approach works on difficulty levels up to and including Immortal.

I don't think I'll have time until this weekend, but I'll see about generating a few maps and post up some starts for people to try out.

[Gertrude]

Thank you. That makes sense but looks a bit scary. I will try it.

[Beatie]

remember that the father away the captured city's are.... the higher the maintenance cost are...it really can drain your economy emty.My advise is to make sure you build enough cottages (you need pottery tech for that), it can really help you with economy problems if you go for earlier war. I usually wait to build my next city if i have enough extra money... I onced build lots of city early on... and i had to put my tax rate at 20% sience.. it ruined my economy... same can happen if you capture city's... if those city's got hamlets, or towns.. that is something else