Educate Ben about black women

[gribbler]

My work was and is valued higher abroad than in Canada. Much higher. That, plus the fact that TX is a free state, is completely awesome.

Texas has a government. It... collects taxes.

Not to mention the US federal government.

[Ben Kenobi]

Texas has a government. It... collects taxes.

True, through sales taxes. I have no problem with taxes on voluntary economic activities.

Not to mention the US federal government.

Hence my argument, from greater slavery to lesser slavery. It is unfortunate that they still subscribe to the misguided policy that income taxes increase government revenue.

[loinburger]

Well sure, that's because you support eugenics and population control too. You *are* aware that she advocated coercive sterilization which did become policy in many western nations in the 30s?

And you support cannibalism and buggery, since you've chosen to devolve to your usual debating style.

[Ben Kenobi]

And you support cannibalism and buggery, since you've chosen to devolve to your usual debating style.

Oh so. You disagree with Malthus?

[gribbler]

True, through sales taxes. I have no problem with taxes on voluntary economic activities.

How is consumption voluntary? If it was, working would also be voluntary. Sales taxes are functionally equivalent to taxing earned income.

Hence my argument, from greater slavery to lesser slavery. It is unfortunate that they still subscribe to the misguided policy that income taxes increase government revenue.

It's no more misguided than thinking a sales tax will increase revenue.

[gribbler]

What does Malthus have to do with this?

[loinburger]

@Ben: It's also disingenuous to fail to mention which population group(s) you're discussing - given your usual lack of honesty in debating I'm assuming you intended to imply that Sanger advocated the sterilization of African-Americans.

[Riesstiu IV]

This thread has only reminded me why debating with Ben is about as appealing as driving a nail into your dick.

[loinburger]

This thread has only reminded me why debating with Ben is about as appealing as driving a nail into your dick.

Yes, I should have known better. I concede BK, Sanger ate puppies and groped for trout in strange rivers. All taxes are evil unless they're levied in Texas. Black women would be much better off if they did what you told them to do. Etc.

[Ben Kenobi]

How is consumption voluntary?

Well for starters, grow your own food. Failing that, there are charities that provide for those who cannot provide for themselves.

Sales taxes are functionally equivalent to taxing earned income.

Quite the opposite. All my money would go to me. I would only pay whenever I chose to buy something, so I would have control over a variety of things.

1, what I am willing to pay in sales taxes.
2, when I would pay said taxes through my spending.

As opposed to giving the government a tax-free loans in the hopes that someday they might give me some of it back, these are significant advantages.

It's no more misguided than thinking a sales tax will increase revenue.

Well Texas has better roads, better services by far, despite far lower per capita spending. Not only is their taxation system more efficient, it remains capable of funding the needs of the people of TX.

[Ben Kenobi]

What does Malthus have to do with this?

Absolutely everything. The only difference between Sanger and Malthus is in methodology.

[Ben Kenobi]

Altering quotes with your own words is a pretty sad debate, loin. She never used the word misguided, and yet you saw fit to insert it in there.

[gribbler]

Well for starters, grow your own food. Failing that, there are charities that provide for those who cannot provide for themselves.

If I did that, I wouldn't be affected by income taxes either.

Quite the opposite. All my money would go to me. I would only pay whenever I chose to buy something, so I would have control over a variety of things.

1, what I am willing to pay in sales taxes.
2, when I would pay said taxes through my spending.

As opposed to giving the government a tax-free loans in the hopes that someday they might give me some of it back, these are significant advantages.

The ultimate purpose of all income is consumption. Whether the government shaves off ~9.1% of your income with an income tax or levies a 10% sales tax, the impact on your purchasing power is identical. Any rational person would be indifferent to those two options.

I'm not sure what "tax-free" loans are. Are they like interest free loans?

Well Texas has better roads, better services by far, despite far lower per capita spending. Not only is their taxation system more efficient, it remains capable of funding the needs of the people of TX.

BC might simply be a shithole. Maybe it's the people from there.

[gribbler]

Absolutely everything. The only difference between Sanger and Malthus is in methodology.

Malthus advocated eugenics? Source?

He did think that the standard of living would be higher if people chose to have less children. As far as I know he didn't say anything about breeding a better species or anything like that.

[loinburger]

Altering quotes with your own words is a pretty sad debate, loin. She never used the word misguided, and yet you saw fit to insert it in there.

From the context of her quote it was obvious to everybody but you that she wasn't saying "let's exterminate the African-Americans," particularly in the context of her writings and her association with Du Bois and her acceptance by King. You're just too set on crucifying her to see reason. Also, only a complete moron wouldn't realize that I was paraphrasing in my use of "misguided" to clarify what she obviously meant in an attempt to de-quotemine her.

[Ben Kenobi]

The ultimate purpose of all income is consumption.

Hardly. What about investment?

Whether the government shaves off ~9.1% of your income with an income tax or levies a 10% sales tax, the impact on your purchasing power is identical.

Very much not so. My income can earn me money today if invested, and increase it's purchasing power over time. Income taxation removes this power altogether and gives it to the government. Hence, the interest-free loan.

Any rational person would be indifferent to those two options.

Any rational person despises involuntary interest-free loans and will seek to shelter income in non-taxable enterprises.

[gribbler]

Hardly. What about investment?

Investment is deferred consumption. You trade present consumption for future consumption when you invest.

Very much not so. My income can earn me money today if invested, and increase it's purchasing power over time. Income taxation removes this power altogether and gives it to the government. Hence, the interest-free loan.

All you do when investing is trade present consumption for future consumption. Since both taxation schemes leave you with the same amount of present consumption available to trade, there isn't any difference.

Any rational person despises involuntary interest-free loans and will seek to shelter income in non-taxable enterprises.

Yes, people will try to dodge taxes through the black market, whether it's a sales tax or an income tax.

[Ben Kenobi]

From the context of her quote

Entirely not obvious. If she wanted to use the word 'misguided', she would have used that word. She did not. We cannot assume that she wanted to use the word, where she did not choose to use the word.

particularly in the context of her writings and her association with Du Bois and her acceptance by King.

And her assocation to the Klan is irrelevant?

You're just too set on crucifying her to see reason.

Quite the opposite. I believe that she has made her desire to eliminate the unfit very clear through her works. I realize that the common parlance of today regards her as the purest saint, but that is because her ideology is in favour.

They have swept what the could under the rug, and mostly gotten away with it, except for a few annoyances that bring up facts. Did you know that the only Supreme court justice to oppose involuntary sterilization of the unfit was a Catholic? Why isn't he a hero?

Also, only a complete moron wouldn't realize that I was paraphrasing in my use of "misguided" to clarify what she obviously meant in an attempt to de-quotemine her.

Which is why I'm objecting to you inserting in words that she decidedly did not say to alter her position.

[loinburger]

Entirely not obvious.

Because you're dim

[Ben Kenobi]

Investment is deferred consumption. You trade present consumption for future consumption when you invest.

When used as capital to fund enterprises? All capital accumulation originates through income and wealth preservation. You've got it backwards. Income Taxes directly attacks capital accumulation by stopping it before it starts.

Since both taxation schemes leave you with the same amount of present consumption available to trade, there isn't any difference.

There is a substantial difference between money invested today and withdrawn 20 years from now to a profit due to interest accumulation over time.

Yes, people will try to dodge taxes through the black market, whether it's a sales tax or an income tax.

But according to your theory, such behaviour is irrational because 'they'd all end up the same anyhow'.

[Asher]

I was in IB, which was paid for by us, not by the government. That exposed the 'quality' of the 'education' I recieved when I was still in the public school system. The same system, btw, that actually denied me admission due to my disability because they wanted to put me in special education.

So public education in Canada can KMA. God knows they didn't ever give a **** about education.

You're a lying *****. The IB fees were paid by you, but 95% of your educational costs were covered by the public. You also attended a public university.

Which covered what of the following? Hearing appointments? No. Hearing aids? No. Glasses? No. Optometrist appointments? No. Dental check ups? No. Orthodontics? No.

You are a ****ing liar.

Did you have a family doctor? Were you born in a public hospital? Were you given vaccinations?

And the fact that you or your family did not take advantage of things (like free optometry care for children) is a function of your own stupidity.

I suppose they did cover one operation when I was a kid. That's bout it. Great 'healthcare' system that conveniently doesn't cover anything.

Doesn't cover anything?

I lost 2000+ in a break in. Great job, police at finding and recovering my property.

Fire? Volunteer fire department. City pays nothing. Residents fund it all through their dollars. So what exactly did the taxes contribute to anything?

I can't speak to why you lived in butt**** nowhere and paid lower property taxes as a result. That's irrelevant.

[Asher]

My work was and is valued higher abroad than in Canada. Much higher. That, plus the fact that TX is a free state, is completely awesome.

What ****ing work is that?

You are completely ****ing useless. You are immensely retarded, unquestionably bigoted, unwilling to learn anything, amazingly stubborn, and completely devoid of any personality.

You are also highly likely working as an illegal in Texas, as I highly doubt you could get a work visa with a useless degree like you have and no job lined up beforehand.

[Ben Kenobi]

You're a lying *****. The IB fees were paid by you, but 95% of your educational costs were covered by the public. You also attended a public university.

You'd hold me responsible for education decisions made while I was a minor? I couldn't exactly just stop going and make that decision myself.

As for a public university, I was awarded scholarships and I paid my fees to the public university through work. I owed nothing when I eventually got my degree from a different public institution. The only insistance that the CDN government has is that I repay all outstanding loans, which I have done. They do not hold me, nor any student responsible for the fees incurred by the university's operation costs.

That's irrelevant.

Entirely not so because they didn't discount my taxes for living in butt**** nowhere.

Which covered what of the following? Hearing appointments? No. Hearing aids? No. Glasses? No. Optometrist appointments? No. Dental check ups? No. Orthodontics? No. You are a ****ing liar.

You are calling me a liar for saying that my hearing aids were not covered?

Did you have a family doctor? Were you born in a public hospital? Were you given vaccinations?

Yes to all three, but the doctor is a family doctor in both senses of the word. We'd pay him ourselves save for a rule that prevents us from doing just that.

[Ben Kenobi]

What ****ing work is that?

Teaching in a private Catholic school?

You are completely ****ing useless. You are immensely retarded, unquestionably bigoted, unwilling to learn anything, amazingly stubborn, and completely devoid of any personality.

Wow, and what are my bad features?

You are also highly likely working as an illegal in Texas, as I highly doubt you could get a work visa with a useless degree like you have and no job lined up beforehand.

As I said my skills were much more valued in TX than in BC. They are desperate for trained and capable teachers.

[gribbler]

When used as capital to fund enterprises? All capital accumulation originates through income and wealth preservation. You've got it backwards. Income Taxes directly attacks capital accumulation by stopping it before it starts.

In nominal terms you have more money available to invest after earning income if there is a sales tax than if there is an income tax. But money has less purchasing power when you have to pay a sales tax, so in real terms you have the same amount of stuff available to trade in order to own capital goods. Why is owning $100 when there is a 10% sales tax be any more valuable than owning $90.9 when there is no sales tax? Why would you be able to trade one for more real assets than the other?

There is a substantial difference between money invested today and withdrawn 20 years from now to a profit due to interest accumulation over time.

I can't parse this.

But according to your theory, such behaviour is irrational because 'they'd all end up the same anyhow'.

Huh? If you can get away with not paying your taxes then it benefits you.

[Ben Kenobi]

In nominal terms you have more money available to invest after earning income if there is a sales tax than if there is an income tax. But money has less purchasing power when you have to pay a sales tax, so in real terms you have the same amount of stuff available to trade in order to own capital goods.

Sans interest accumulation in the intervening time. A significant caveat. Also, purchasing power under a sales tax is increased as labour costs for said items are decreased. The less employers have to pay the government in order to hire employees, the less they have to pay said employees to compensate them adequately.

[gribbler]

Sans interest accumulation in the intervening time. A significant caveat. Also, purchasing power under a sales tax is increased as labour costs for said items are decreased. The less employers have to pay the government in order to hire employees, the less they have to pay said employees to compensate them adequately.

Why would labor costs be lower? Sales tax will have the same impact on the rewards for working as income tax, because either way the government takes a bite out of what workers are able to consume. If they have to pay a sales tax they should want to take home more in nominal terms for a given amount of work.

Also, I don't see any reason why switching from income tax to sales tax would impact interest rates.

[Ben Kenobi]

Sales tax will have the same impact on the rewards for working as income tax, because either way the government takes a bite out of what workers are able to consume

Sales tax is linear. Income tax is progressive.

[gribbler]

Sales tax is linear. Income tax is progressive.

An income tax can be flat. A progressive tax makes some forms of labor more expensive and some cheaper than a flat tax does. However comparing a flat sales tax to a progressive income tax doesn't make sense because you're comparing not just two different types of taxation, but also different rates. It would make more sense to keep the effects of different rates and the effects of different forms of taxation distinct.

[Ben Kenobi]

An income tax can be flat. A progressive tax makes some forms of labor more expensive and some cheaper than a flat tax does. However comparing a flat sales tax to a progressive income tax doesn't make sense because you're comparing not just two different types of taxation, but also different rates. It would make more sense to keep the effects of different rates and the effects of different forms of taxation distinct.

True, but in general income taxes are almost always progressive and sales taxes are flat. So there is an incentive to work harder because you will benefit more. Once you are over your basic spending needs, sales tax only jurisdictions are much better.