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Thread: CTP1: Forever Future 1.7 has been released

  1. #61
    Max_Smirnov
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    @ICBM problem: this is mighty STRANGE. For everyone else, it had dissappeared when blown up, like it should... You're saying this happened while it was loaded? Anyway extensive testing had shown no problem here - ICBM's blew up properly all the time, loaded or not... try to reinstall, maybe? Your saves should work.

    @Pollution problem: well, sometimes it is simply inevitable. Recycling Plants move the "clock" backwards a bit, there is also Kyoto Protocol wonder that temporarily turns off the pollution. Still, the AI won't stop polluting, although they're very rarely causing really heavy pollution (they often use the Ecotopia govt anyway). So: no easy solutions here, sorry - it takes a lot of skill, and sometimes military action to save the planet

    @New tile improvements: Impossible afaik. Well we COULD make roads and railways above water, but come on. Bridges spanning tens of miles, in the bronze age? I'm afraid you have to wait till Maglevs :P

    @Airport gold: Yeah, I was thinking about that. But, I don't really want forest tiles to be spammed with airports. Some tile gold generator would be nice, though - we'll keep that in mind. In the update, the level 2 and 3 nets generate +5 gold, and some of the goods also generate extra gold (above the usual +10).

    @"Turrets": We were discussing this idea with Solar and Eerion lately. As for now, the game is very offense-heavy, and we were thinking about putting some more strength into defense. The idea is to make it possible to upgrade units in Forts into *immobile, powerful garrisons with ranged attacks*. This would make forts much more useful, but I'm still not sure if I'll be able to pull it off, as it would take some creative SLIC programming...

    @Underwater/Sea: the update is *heavy* into that. Sea and space cities are even more powerful, and the high end units/improvements are either unavailable on land or extremely expensive. You'll need to invest into sea and/or space to be able to assure a long-term victory.

  2. #62
    Fonzo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Smirnov View Post
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    @ICBM problem: this is mighty STRANGE. For everyone else, it had dissappeared when blown up, like it should... You're saying this happened while it was loaded? Anyway extensive testing had shown no problem here - ICBM's blew up properly all the time, loaded or not... try to reinstall, maybe? Your saves should work.
    Actually, I dont even need to load it. It flies without nukes on board and explodes like a nuke. After that, I can reuse it time and again, without filling it with nukes.

    Maybe it would be good if you can make almost the whole game as a download, just removing one crucial thing (like the startup). I dont think that would infringe on any copyright areas (but Im no lawyer so I dont know). That way, everybody using the mod will actually be using the same game.

  3. #63
    Max_Smirnov
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    Actually, the copyright infringement is the thing I'm most afraid of, even if probably nobody at Activision gives a damn about CTP anymore, they're a pretty big company :P Especially since there are some original files in the mod package, for example the complete dafault/gamedata folder (hunting down all those stray txt files would be very difficult). This mod is a fruit of several years of work and legal trouble is the last thing I want.

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    Fonzo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Smirnov View Post
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    Actually, the copyright infringement is the thing I'm most afraid of, even if probably nobody at Activision gives a damn about CTP anymore, they're a pretty big company :P Especially since there are some original files in the mod package, for example the complete dafault/gamedata folder (hunting down all those stray txt files would be very difficult). This mod is a fruit of several years of work and legal trouble is the last thing I want.
    Maybe contact activision and just ask them? I dont know, but I think thei would be happy that there is still a community that actually plays this old game. Maybe it can also give them the incentive to revive it?

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    Fonzo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Smirnov View Post
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    @Pollution problem: well, sometimes it is simply inevitable. Recycling Plants move the "clock" backwards a bit, there is also Kyoto Protocol wonder that temporarily turns off the pollution. Still, the AI won't stop polluting, although they're very rarely causing really heavy pollution (they often use the Ecotopia govt anyway). So: no easy solutions here, sorry - it takes a lot of skill, and sometimes military action to save the planet
    Would be nice to maybe have an early nuclear age pollution cleaner like Hydro power plant. I remeber in another Civ (cant remeber which number) you could build the wonder "Hoover Dam" which counted as a Hydro power plant in each city. Say maybe +1 happiness, -1 food (because of the land it takes), +1 production and
    -25% pollution for a Hydro power plant? I dont know about the specs, but it might be something worth thinking of since today it is actually worth more power than solar energy (at least here in Sweden). Maybe (if it is possible) you can make it into a tile improvement, that reduces pollution of the city and gives production, although not as much as a mine.

  6. #66
    Max_Smirnov
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    Heh, that's actually a nice idea, that food penalty is a really interesting twist. The main problem is, the engine doesn't allow for harnessing the rivers in any way, and a big dam in every city, regardless of terrain, seems odd... Actually, the hydro power is already used in the game - in the form of the Mill, the single best Production building in the game

    There are some problems:
    1. There is a hard limit of 64 buildings. All slots are used, so something would have to be replaced.
    2. No new tile improvements can be added; and even if we had replaced one of them, they cannot interact with pollution in any way. Plus, a river is not considered a terrain type, just a bonus, so no chance for a "river only" improvement. Maybe a tidal power plant, but no normal hydro plants.
    3. Building pollution cleaners doesn't really seem to affect the global pollution level at all, just the amount of it your civ is producing.
    4. The fact tha one civ alone cannot save the environment of the whole planet is actually quite realistic. I'm personally finding the level of pollution the AI opponents produce to be rather subdued; not exactly clean, but not exceedingly dirty either. Maybe try to avoid taking opponents with the "Industrialist" personality type...

  7. #67
    Fonzo
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Smirnov View Post
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    1. There is a hard limit of 64 buildings. All slots are used, so something would have to be replaced.
    2. No new tile improvements can be added; and even if we had replaced one of them, they cannot interact with pollution in any way. Plus, a river is not considered a terrain type, just a bonus, so no chance for a "river only" improvement. Maybe a tidal power plant, but no normal hydro plants.
    Thanks for the answers, but it doesnt mean I like the to above facts I would have loved to se some more of everything, especially tile improvements. Just a question. You were thinking of making some sort of permanent defence establishment, how are you going to implement that? Some sort of unit type that is unmovable?

    Anyway, I love what you are doing to the game and I cant wait to see the next version of mod. Keep up the wonderful work guys!!

    PS Another nice feature would be to allow bombarding defence establisment like the city walls. To see the walls crumbling with your small catapult would be nice, although I think that you will give me a negative responce like "Sorry, but it cant be done within the games parameters"

  8. #68
    Max_Smirnov
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    About those defence establisment... I have an idea how it can be THEORETICALLY done. Not sure if I have enough skill in SLIC programming to pull it off
    1. You move an unit into a tile with a fortress tile improvement; the program checks collision
    2. if the prerequisites are met (unit type, technology) it displays a context menu: "do you want to upgrade unit X to the defensive unit Y for Z gold pieces"
    3. if clicked yes, the program deducts Z gold from the player, kills the unit X and spawns unit Y in the same tile.
    4. There will be 4 or 5 levels of defensive units. They would be unmovable/untransportable, but with very solid defense values, bombardment, and, ultimately, Active Defense.

    Catapult question: if you bombard a city, there is always some chance per each shot that a random building will be destroyed. Shoot enough times, and the walls WILL fall.

    Thanks for the kind words

    PS. if you like more of everything, you'll love that the update almost doubles the number of goods (and all of them provide unique bonuses)

  9. #69
    Fonzo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Smirnov View Post
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    3. if clicked yes, the program deducts Z gold from the player, kills the unit X and spawns unit Y in the same tile.


    PS. if you like more of everything, you'll love that the update almost doubles the number of goods (and all of them provide unique bonuses)
    I think it would be better if the defence establisments costs public works, but just my two cents.

    Ohhh, more goods. Love the idea!

  10. #70
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    Yeah, using the PW is an alternate option. Makes no difference for coding.
    We'd realease the update soon, it's already working (not counting the more ambitious projects like the aforementioned fort/defensive unit combo, just two units are missing) but the main hurdle is the Great Library; it requires a ton of work. Putting it together before the first release took three months of work of two people.

  11. #71
    Fonzo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Smirnov View Post
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    Yeah, using the PW is an alternate option. Makes no difference for coding.
    We'd realease the update soon, it's already working (not counting the more ambitious projects like the aforementioned fort/defensive unit combo, just two units are missing) but the main hurdle is the Great Library; it requires a ton of work. Putting it together before the first release took three months of work of two people.
    Now, when I am reaching the end for the second time, I have some more suggestions that have popped up in my mind. Fell free to implement/discard (or say it is impossible) them as you feel like it.
    1. Move the mobile infantry in the tech tree. As I see it it feels strange to have a mobile infantry at the same time as you get Hannabu. Maybe let it pop up at Rapid Deployment?
    2. A levitating earthshaker? Same stats and special abilities as the normal eartshaker but with the same movement and type of movement as the Fusion tank. This way you can actually use it as artillery with the fusion tanks. I think the sprite should be something like the fusion tank, but when it "lands" it extracts stabilizing arms to be able to fire. Maybe it can come as an extra unit when you develop Forcefields?
    3. The small oasis desert plot doesnt actually give you anything more than the normal desert. I would recomend that it actually gives you some food (this is actually something that has irritated me a long time ).
    4. Clean up the obsolete units a bit. Some of the units are units that you actually never use when you get some sort of upgrade, so it would be good to remove them.

    Just my two cents. As usual, keep up the excellent work!
    Last edited by Fonzo; August 26, 2011 at 13:11.

  12. #72
    Max_Smirnov
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    1. Mobile infantry stays where it is, but gets a boost (25A/15D). It's going to be comparatively cheap, as well; just your standard-issue cannon fodder in the age dominated by rampaging war machines.
    2. Nice idea, but there isn't too much space for that. The tactical role of the earthshaker is took on by the Helix Knight now (and she levitates). Late technology, I agree, but fast moving, levitating (better than flying, since the skies are very hostile from the genetic age onwards now) artillery is an extremely powerful unit. Earthshaker got unique 2-tile-range active defense vs. land, so it might be more useful The fusion tanks themselves are extremely dangerous.
    3. It's just a graphical feature, for all intents and purposes it's a normal desert. In other words: No Can Do.
    4. Could you be more specific? We need that kind of feedback to polish the game; I tried to be on the safe side and allowed units to be obsoleted only when they're completely useless.

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    Fonzo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Smirnov View Post
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    1. Mobile infantry stays where it is, but gets a boost (25A/15D). It's going to be comparatively cheap, as well; just your standard-issue cannon fodder in the age dominated by rampaging war machines.
    2. Nice idea, but there isn't too much space for that. The tactical role of the earthshaker is took on by the Helix Knight now (and she levitates). Late technology, I agree, but fast moving, levitating (better than flying, since the skies are very hostile from the genetic age onwards now) artillery is an extremely powerful unit. Earthshaker got unique 2-tile-range active defense vs. land, so it might be more useful The fusion tanks themselves are extremely dangerous.
    3. It's just a graphical feature, for all intents and purposes it's a normal desert. In other words: No Can Do.
    4. Could you be more specific? We need that kind of feedback to polish the game; I tried to be on the safe side and allowed units to be obsoleted only when they're completely useless.
    1. I would remove some of the attack and give it more def capability, since it is only used in this purpose.
    2. Yes, fusion tank is the absolute favourite after Battleoids of course. I use the earthshaker a bit together with the Cyberpanzer but as soon as the fusion tank is available, who use anything else?
    4. Will get back to you about it. Maybe I will replay the game yet another time and search all thos units out.

    Another thing, is the update going to fix the wonders a bit? I would recommend to do just a single picture (not a movie) for the new wonders so you get correct info about what the wonder is doing and maybe a small informatic picture.

  14. #74
    Max_Smirnov
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    @Mobile Infantry. Defensively? With that kind of speed and amphibious assault? Dunno. Her defensive counterpart is the Land Warrior.

    @Fusion Tanks. Get ready for a massive price hike (around +100%)

    @Wonders: Uhhh, sorry for that. Bad craftsmanship. I haven't played with movies on for several years and kinda forgotten about them... Single - frame movies for the new wonders do seem like a neat idea, though!

  15. #75
    Fonzo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Smirnov View Post
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    @Mobile Infantry. Defensively? With that kind of speed and amphibious assault? Dunno. Her defensive counterpart is the Land Warrior.

    @Fusion Tanks. Get ready for a massive price hike (around +100%)

    @Wonders: Uhhh, sorry for that. Bad craftsmanship. I haven't played with movies on for several years and kinda forgotten about them... Single - frame movies for the new wonders do seem like a neat idea, though!
    Mobile infantry for me is a def unit, since when I reach Hannabu I use it exclusively for attacking (I mean, the unit is great!). Thats why I would like to have mobile infantry a bit earlier. This way you would actually use mobile infantry a bit more as an off unit. For me mobility is aalpha to omega when it comes to offensive units. Strike fast and hard!

  16. #76
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    Yeah, exactly what I was afraid of... Gunship/Hanabu are way too powerful because of their unmatched mobility coupled with city-conquering capacity. There will be a large price hike for them, as well as double upkeep cost (6% of production cost instead of normal 3%).

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    Fonzo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Smirnov View Post
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    Yeah, exactly what I was afraid of... Gunship/Hanabu are way too powerful because of their unmatched mobility coupled with city-conquering capacity. There will be a large price hike for them, as well as double upkeep cost (6% of production cost instead of normal 3%).
    Well, its only good until the enemy starts using war walkers. The problem I think is not the cost, rather the comps inability to use SAMs. Active air defence kills the Hanabu effectively, but according to me the AI seems stuck on the old units, not using any of the new units. Dont know why, probably something in the coding. This little problem gives the player a huge advantage against the AI.

    I would recomend not putting up the cost, instead make the comp concentrate on building AA-guns (as I do) and maybe let the big aircraft protection units (SAMS, War Walkers, Leviathan) have 2 squares of active air defence.

    By the way, is there some way to neutralize the AI wonder? Even in the old game I had problem with this wonder (I never build it since the risk of having an AI revolution isnt worth it) since the computer allways tries to build it. As soon as I conquer a city with the AI wonder, I go back to and old saving and nuke the city back to stoneage. Would be good to change it someway.
    Last edited by Fonzo; September 5, 2011 at 14:30.

  18. #78
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    1. The active defense kills SINGLE hanabus effectively. Think about hordes of them. That quietly hover over a sea or desert and are released en masse when needed

    2. Long-range AA active defense. It had been done already two or three months ago . SAM's, Escort Cruisers, War Walkers and Helix Knights have a range of 3 now. Some units, like SDI lasers, have a range of 2. Some, like Interceptors, have a range of 1. There is also Arachnopod, a dedicated high-end, invisible AA unit with a range of 5 (with less firepower than War Walker, though).

    3. CTP AI takes a lot of work. We will be refining it as we go, thanks for the suggestion. The computer DOES upgrade to new units if it's at war; it rather dislikes SAMs for some reason, though... We'll try to remedy that.

    4. AI entity is lame. We have an idea that it could remove the Happiness penalties for capitol distance, plus reduce crime by half empirewide, instead of its current effect.

    5. Good news, finally. After putting the last 2 units into the game (Arachnopod AAA and the anti-ICBM sattelite), and fixing both AI files and Library links, we're pretty close to releasing the update. All it's left is making better sprites for new units and updating a lot Library entries.

  19. #79
    Fonzo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Smirnov View Post
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    2. Long-range AA active defense. It had been done already two or three months ago . SAM's, Escort Cruisers, War Walkers and Helix Knights have a range of 3 now. Some units, like SDI lasers, have a range of 2. Some, like Interceptors, have a range of 1. There is also Arachnopod, a dedicated high-end, invisible AA unit with a range of 5 (with less firepower than War Walker, though).

    3. CTP AI takes a lot of work. We will be refining it as we go, thanks for the suggestion. The computer DOES upgrade to new units if it's at war; it rather dislikes SAMs for some reason, though... We'll try to remedy that.

    4. AI entity is lame. We have an idea that it could remove the Happiness penalties for capitol distance, plus reduce crime by half empirewide, instead of its current effect.

    5. Good news, finally. After putting the last 2 units into the game (Arachnopod AAA and the anti-ICBM sattelite), and fixing both AI files and Library links, we're pretty close to releasing the update. All it's left is making better sprites for new units and updating a lot Library entries.
    @2. Personally I think the Leviathan also should have a higher range, since it is the ultimate def unit late in the game. Since it costs a lot it should be able to shoot those bloody airplanes down.

    @3. Great, the comp really needs it.

    @4. Totally agree. But since happiness is rather balanced as is, is there a possibility to give it some other effect? I was thinking of maybe producing PWp because of its highly effective management of the empire or something. Something like giving the host Civ an equal output like a 10% PWp tax. No wonder as is is giving any PWp and it would be nice to have some cool never before used effect on this one.

    @5. Ahhh, I wait with anticipation. As allways, keep up the great work. Would be good if you realesed more of the files (still without bringing the law upon your head, as we have discussed earlier) this time so that people that uses the mod doesnt find a lot of trouble with it.

  20. #80
    Fonzo
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    By the way, the Dreadnaught unit is a bit lame. To have it as some sort of unit on pair with the other ones at the same age, it needs some boosts. I would recomend letting it have active air, land and sea defence. this would let it be a good unit for the same age. Right now the plasma cruiser, Helix knight and the devastator kicks its as any day of the week.

  21. #81
    Max_Smirnov
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    Don't worry, Dreadnaught is getting a massive boost

  22. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Smirnov View Post
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    Don't worry, Dreadnaught is getting a massive boost
    Ahh, great. Really needed that. Maybe some active space could do the trick?

    What do you think about my other suggestions, especially nr 2 and nr 4?

  23. #83
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    Leviathan: rather no. Range 2 land/sea active defense is a bit too much imo.

    AI Entity: sadly, it's impossible, there are no such wonder flags.

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    Fonzo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Smirnov View Post
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    Leviathan: rather no. Range 2 land/sea active defense is a bit too much imo.

    AI Entity: sadly, it's impossible, there are no such wonder flags.
    Then I would vrecommend that the AI gives something else than happiness. For that there is already the Sensoriym and Angelnet that gives plenty. Maybe a gold increase? Anything that isnt active a lot in the future in this mod. Maybe that the AI can control trade and gives you unlimited caravans?

    Ohh, btw, is there any expected release date on the update? Im thinking of restarting the game for the third time, but if you will release an update soon, Ill wait until the update.

  25. #85
    Max_Smirnov
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    Hmm... like, this weekend? Hopefully, we're almost done

    The Global E-bank gives unlimited caravans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Smirnov View Post
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    Hmm... like, this weekend? Hopefully, we're almost done

    The Global E-bank gives unlimited caravans.
    Ohhhh, cant wait until I see the release!!!!! As usual, Great Work!

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    Fonzo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Smirnov View Post
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    Hmm... like, this weekend? Hopefully, we're almost done

    The Global E-bank gives unlimited caravans.
    I know that you are overlooking the whole tile concept. Are youm thinking of inputting new sort of tiles or is that impossible?

    I was also thinking of the Battleoid. As I use as the utlimate war unit. As such, I think maybe it should come a bit later. Maybe a new unit inbetween the Battleoid and the Hannabu?

    Still, great work and Im still droolingly awaiting the update.

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    Fonzo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Smirnov View Post
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    Hmm... like, this weekend? Hopefully, we're almost done
    Any word on the update?

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    Grandpa Troll
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    This has allways had a special place in my heart, do some very rudimentary scenario hacking at best, for my enjoyment. Was very surprised to see this thread, thanks and hope all works out as you intend!
    Did anyone have Ryan Dunn From Jackass FAME? He died in a fiery car crash speeding after being in a bar. And to think, everyone thought he would die doing something stupid-rah

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    Thanks for your kind words, everyone! Well, the only major thing to be done before the next release is one annoying sprite. Max is really busy with his actual work now, but he should be done in two weeks or so, so he'll hopefully be able to have a go at it. There are some other things to finish, like the tech tree, but they're fairly minor.

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