What the civ4 patching may say about the future of Civ5

[Robert Plomp]

Does this game work out off the box for you? No! a stunning 47.33% of the responders answered! MP is nearly unplayable someone claimed! Are we talking about Civilization V? No! These are comments on Civ4!. Just after it's release the Civ IV Forums were flooded with complains and cries for help. Was Civilization IV a tragedy? Not at all. After a slow start many (if not most) considered Civ4 to be the best Civgame ever! Even one of the most skeptical Civ-Fans, yin26, in the end had to Eat the Civ4 box as he promised to do if Civ4 would live up to his high expectations!

How did Civ4 become such legendary iteration in the series after such a slow start? The answer is: Patching! And not only patching, also the expansions, Warlords in 2006 and Beyond the Sword in 2007, expanded the game into something great!

Now we have Civilization V and many complains are filling the forums again. Will Civ5 have a future nonetheless? Let's learn from the past! Let's learn from Civ4. Can we trust Firaxis and 2K Games to deliver? The answer is YES! In 2005 Civilization IV was released. The game was released on October 25th 2005. The first major patch was released on November 23rd (v1.09). The game continued to received patches until July 20th 2007!!. That's a stunning 2 years after it's release!. v1.74 was the 4th huge patch for Civilization IV. (1.52 on Dec 23rd 2005, 1.61 on April 13th 2006). The famous SDK and Pitboss server were released with the 1.61 patch.

Before the first major patch was released, Firaxis released a note about the upcoming patch in which Firaxis gave some info about what to expect. Similar but not as detailed as the Civ5 patch update we got from 2K through Greg Laabs this week.

In 2006 the Expansion Pack Civilization IV: Warlords was released (July 24th) and in 2007 Civilization IV: Beyond the Sword (July 18th). While Warlords was considered to be a minimal addition to the basic game, Beyond the Sword was hailed as a huge expansion, introducing corporations, espionage and many new civilizations and scenarios. Patching didn't stop with the release of these XP's! Beyond the Sword shipped with a patch for the dated 'vanilla' game! This latest XP received patches up till October 6th 2009!. That's 2 years after it's initial release and 4 years after the release of Civilization IV. (This patch included a change that removed the need for the CD or DVD to play the game!)

Does this mean that Civilization V will also be supported for many years? That the problems and bugs in Civ5 also will certainly be fixed? No, not for sure. In the Gaming Industry the past doesn't give any warranties for the future. We can conclude that 2K Games and Firaxis have deserved a lot of trust from the Fan Community though. It is impossible to expect gaming companies to release perfect bugfree games out of the box in this day and age, especially for Personal Computers. Companies have to deal with share holders and must make, after all, profit. The gaming industry can earn credits by supporting a game till it's finished. And that's what we will do again!

Many civfans bought Civilization V while knowing it would not be perfect immediately. But we bought it with the knowledge that Firaxis lived up to our expectations and 2K would fund patches. And in the meantime we enjoy the game nonetheless. And not only Civilization V! Also Civ4 is still being played by many!

[CHannum]

Good post. I mostly agree with everything you said. I bought Civ V knowing full well with my experiences of every Firaxis game I ever bought that what I got out of the box was going to be bit of a mixed bag so my reaction has been more positive than from those expecting something that supersedes Civ IV on day 1. I thought about not buying until after the first expansion as past history shows that's when the games actually start to get good, but decided that, at least one more time, Firaxis deserved my support since they're really the only people making turn based games of this scope and caliber. Now, if they fail to live up to past practices and leave Civ V without the eventual polish I expect, it probably will be the last Civ game I buy on release, but BTS was such a feat of game polishing for the rather dry and boring Civ IV that they earned a little faith.

I think the core mechanics of Civ V show more promise than any Civ since SMAC, now we just need to see them train the AIs to play with them and tweak and add enough stuff to finish the game.

[jobe]

Now we have Civilization V and many complains are filling the forums again. Will Civ5 have a future nonetheless? Let's learn from the past! Let's learn from Civ4.

Did Firaxis/2k "learn from the past" or "learn from Civ4" as well or do just we have to?

[Robert Plomp]

Sometimes history has to be brought up again to make all involved parties remember

[CHannum]

Did Firaxis/2k "learn from the past" or "learn from Civ4" as well or do just we have to?

They learned just fine: ship an unfinished game and you can make enough money to finish it, even collecting more money along the way calling the fixes an "expansion". They did it with SMAC, Civ 3 and Civ 4, don't tell me you were naive enough to expect any different with Civ 5?

Their properties that didn't support this sort of "pay as you go" development (the remakes of Pirates and Colonization) were not surprisingly not well supported and, while decent, shelvable after just a couple of weeks once you'd seen all the games' tricks.

[MxM]

Even one of the most skeptical Civ-Fans, yin26, in the end had to Eat the Civ4 box as he promised to do if Civ4 would live up to his high expectations!

Well, as far as I remember, he ate the box because of Civ IV resolved ICS. He did it nearly at the game release, when the game was "in bad shape", so it was not related to the game being great, just to ICS being finally removed. It was hilarious video though. I was a bit afraid for Yin that he may get into the hospital.

Anyway, agree with the rest of the post.

[Robert Plomp]

yin26 loved civ4 a lot more then he feared in advance
The article has given itself some liberal freedom to re-interpretate the box-eating thing

[dregor]

Think we could get that Yin eating the box video up on youtube?

[MxM]

yin26 loved civ4 a lot more then he feared in advance
The article has given itself some liberal freedom to re-interpretate the box-eating thing

Yes, it is funny though, as far as I remember, the expectations on Apolyton for Civ IV were quite low, and Civ IV exceeded expectations of many people. With Civ V the situation is reverse, the expectations are so high, that even though the game is in about the same shape as Civ IV at launch (and in my opinion is much more fun than Civ IV at lunch), there is a lot of negative reaction to it.

[Ming]

People simply don't like change... and that's exactly what Civ V is, different. From many of the comments, it seems like if they had just tweeked Civ IV BTS a little bit, many people would have been happy. But if that was all they were going to do, it wouldn't have been worth it. For those that still love Civ IV, modding can continue and the game will continue to evolve. Civ V on the other hand is totally different, yet still Civ. It opens up the door to new and exciting concepts. People should remember the uproar when Civ IV was orriginally released. Between the bugs, the new concepts, the computer problems, the stupid AI, it wasn't ready for prime time.

Civ V has it's problems... but I think the long term view is solid.

[CHannum]

People simply don't like change... and that's exactly what Civ V is, different. From many of the comments, it seems like if they had just tweeked Civ IV BTS a little bit, many people would have been happy.

For me it was exactly the fact I wasn't playing the same game I'd been playing for so many years with new graphics that sucked me in. Novelty is good

People should remember the uproar when Civ IV was orriginally released. Between the bugs, the new concepts, the computer problems, the stupid AI, it wasn't ready for prime time.

I don't even think it was ready for prime time after they'd charged money for the first expansion - it didn't really come alive until BTS for me.

Civ V has it's problems... but I think the long term view is solid.

Exactly. The AI is pretty freaking bad at playing the game at this point, diplomacy seems to have gone on an extended vacation to arrive who knows when, but it has a lot more solid core mechanics than Civ 3 or Civ 4 that were effectively just more and more stuff piled on top of Civ 2. The last time a Sid Meiers' property showed this much long tail promise out of the box was SMAC for me, and that's been a while...

[cattivan]

Guys... I'm honest. This stuff sucks... so far. I have bought all Civs. ALL. CivIV and expansions in double copy, to be able to play with my son. I'm happy about the renewal of the gameplay, really, but I'm completely upset about crash. From this morning, the software is not working. I can't load my saves. I can't start up a new game. Nothing. That is really too much, also for a fan like me. I paid 50 Euro. I'm playing in English, even if Italian, cause I prefer the original language. I've bought a new I5-core with Nvdia geforce 1gb dedicated... Just to play with full features this great game. But I'm not able to play. With Civ4 I never experienced crashes. Stuff to fixes, ok, but at least I could play, always. This is not a professional way to treat customers.

[pdxsean]

Thanks for putting this together Robert, you really did some great research. It never fails to amaze me how people quickly forget the past. As a fan of politics in the USA, I see this all the time in discussions of politics, taxes, and social policy... it didn't surprise me to see it here on the Civ board as well. Unfortunately, a lot of people will bury their heads in the sand and ignore the lessons of the past (as so clearly stated here) and continue their complaining ways. After all, haters gotta hate.

[yin26]

Well, as far as I remember, he ate the box because of Civ IV resolved ICS. He did it nearly at the game release, when the game was "in bad shape", so it was not related to the game being great, just to ICS being finally removed. It was hilarious video though. I was a bit afraid for Yin that he may get into the hospital.

Anyway, agree with the rest of the post.

Well, I was momentarily sick for sure. I hadn't counted on the thin plastic coating they put over the cardboard itself.

Robert's larger point is well taken. Civ4 improved a LOT over time, and by BTS we had something really quite amazing (though still open to great improvement). Civ5 will also get a lot of work, too.

That doesn't mean that Civ5 will necessarily ever live up to sky-high expectations. For me the defining moment will be whether or not the AI can truly handle 1UPT, especially things like ranged units that can move and shoot, in some cases multiple times, in a single turn. There was major risk in getting rid of stacks, but there are also potentially major pay offs - but not without a lot more effort to teach the AI a great deal more tactical saavy. Time will tell.

We'll also need modders to give us the final flavors we are after. To Firaxis' credit, all indications are that great effort has been made to keep as much exposed to XML, etc., as possible and not locked in the .exe. It should also be much easier to find, rate, and try mods. Sure, I wish vanilla Civ5 could be all things to all people, but it never will.

Let's see where we are by the release of the first X-pack. If all we see is some new content stuffed into the cracks of a leaking game, that will say something. I personally don't see that happening. I'd almost make a bet on it.

[Myrddin]

That doesn't mean that Civ5 will necessarily ever live up to sky-high expectations. For me the defining moment will be whether or not the AI can truly handle 1UPT, especially things like ranged units that can move and shoot, in some cases multiple times, in a single turn. There was major risk in getting rid of stacks, but there are also potentially major pay offs - but not without a lot more effort to teach the AI a great deal more tactical saavy. Time will tell.

I understand the desire to go in new directions with Civ V, but a design decision to use 1UPT should have been seen as a major risk given the problems that unit restrictions caused the AI in CTP. I'm unconvinced that the AI can be fixed quickly on this and not sure about buying the game until I see how much is improved in the first patch.

[DaShi]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember the Firaxis team being a lot more involved with the community before and shortly after the release of Civ IV. In fact, after the generally negative response that Civ III got, they were more open to taking in the communities ideas. Now it feels a lot more like their post SMAC days, where they pretty much isolated themselves from the community (although not as hostile to it as they were at that time).

[yin26]

I think there is a different avenue for ideas being shared with the devs (beyond their lurking, which they almost certainly do). First is the 2K Forums, which has some official presence, and the second in the beta group, which is obviously directly from the community (and which shares many of the same idea/goals for improvements).

Frankly, I'd rather have the dev team not spending much time replying to posts, although staying in tune with the public is absolutely critical. My sense, again, is that they are in tune if not all that visible necessarily. The best judge of that, of course, are the patches - what they cover or don't cover.

[Theben]

Maybe they just talk to Fanatics these days...

Anyway I'm glad I didn't buy the game and waited instead. This thread points out what's wrong with the industry in general: releasing half-completed games and then relying on patches and the community to finish making the game- 2 to 4 years after the initial release.

[Robert Plomp]

A dev response is only needed if they do not understand some of the frequently heard complains, and just want some more clarification of the players.
For the rest I agree with yin. They're there to deliver patches and games. Not to answer questions. Reading the forums is enough for that.

[DaShi]

Well, I'm just trying to get a feel for their attitude toward this game and the community response. As I said, with Civ IV, it felt more like they were listening. With SMAC, there was some hostility, but they did listen a bit in the end. And with Civ III, it seemed like they generally ignored the community. If we are going to use what they did in the past as an indicator of what to expect from them now, I think this is something to be considered.

[yin26]

It would be nice, I agree, to get some general statement on how Firaxis views the release and what it plans to tackle big picture-wise moving forward. In reality, though, this would almost certainly prove food for more flaming fodder. Best to let the patches/x-packs speak for themselves.

Any cursory look at the forums, or, for example, the combined user score on Gamespot (8.3, currently), suggests that this was not an A+ release by any means. The 8.3 (B-) seems closer to the truth, if not a C+. This is where we take the intent of this thread to heart and must ask: "Are we likely to see the game improve from a C+ to a B+ or better?"

Yes, I think we are. I also think that the devs and the developer are quite intent on getting us there. Could an A/A- be possible? Perhaps once the final patches are in on the final x-pack.

But this can only be done incrementally, through good patching and DLC content. There will be no silver bullet, no bolt from the sky that makes this C+ an A- overnight. It will creep up on us until a year or two from now we look back and find this C+ a strange creature that we barely remember. At that point, somebody will dig up threads from October 2010 and say, "Remember when?"

[DaShi]

You are right. We have to wait and see. But I still believe that overall, the community is actually quite constructive in relaying criticisms of the game. So I do hope that Firaxis takes it to heart.

[notyoueither]

And with Civ III, it seemed like they generally ignored the community.

In what way? I recall several people from Firaxis being quite active on Poly and CFC.

[yin26]

At this point it's resources, which 2K determines. I think everybody at Firaxis would gladly pour their hearts into improving Civ, but it's not their call. This is where strong sales are both a boon and a bane: On the one hand, strong sales argues that not much needs to be fixed/improved other than the standard fare. On the other hand, strong sales indicates that there is a strong market worth putting resources in. All things considered, I'm glad for the strong sales. Had Civ5 totally flopped, we might see little if any patching or ambitious work done on the x-packs.

So whatever will be effective in communicating to 2K would be a good bet. Hopefully Greg from 2K is communicating the need for resources to his superiors. Most of these guys work at least in part on commission.

[Ming]

The strength of the Civ Series has always been the repeat business. Civ will never have the mass appeal that many games have. I think the strong sales (but not killer sales) is a good sign. It means there is more money out there in the future. It's much easier and cheaper to provide expansion packs then a totally new game. I'm glad that the sales are good enough to point to future business.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

It would be nice, I agree, to get some general statement on how Firaxis views the release and what it plans to tackle big picture-wise moving forward. In reality, though, this would almost certainly prove food for more flaming fodder. Best to let the patches/x-packs speak for themselves.

Any cursory look at the forums, or, for example, the combined user score on Gamespot (8.3, currently), suggests that this was not an A+ release by any means. The 8.3 (B-) seems closer to the truth, if not a C+. This is where we take the intent of this thread to heart and must ask: "Are we likely to see the game improve from a C+ to a B+ or better?"

Yes, I think we are. I also think that the devs and the developer are quite intent on getting us there. Could an A/A- be possible? Perhaps once the final patches are in on the final x-pack.

But this can only be done incrementally, through good patching and DLC content. There will be no silver bullet, no bolt from the sky that makes this C+ an A- overnight. It will creep up on us until a year or two from now we look back and find this C+ a strange creature that we barely remember. At that point, somebody will dig up threads from October 2010 and say, "Remember when?"

I support your optimism, and well... here is to waiting

[Fidel]

where's the patch, dammit? i am getting antsy...

[Fidel]

ha, update on 2k forum re patch.
eta is still 'this week'
new changes added:
# If there are less than 5 buildings still needed to construct a National Wonder, the production popup tool-tip now lists which cities lack them. (new 10/20)
these two I do not really understand:
# Added Yield & Culture tool-tip info to the production popup. (new 10/20)
# Tweak information on the Global Politics tab in the Diplomacy Overview screen. (new 10/20)

this is self-explanatory
# Balance - Disbanding units now provides only 10% of their production cost in gold. (new 10/20)
# Request – Enable “one more turn” button if you lose, but are still alive. (new 10/20)
Military – Defensive tactical AI update. When you are at war and threatening an enemy city, the AI will better utilize the garrison, as well as the surrounding terrain in defense of the target city. (new 10/20)

[Ming]

# Balance - Disbanding units now provides only 10% of their production cost in gold. (new 10/20)

Now this is stupid... the real problem is the worthless wealth feature, not that you could get more money by building and disbanding units. So now they are just screwing up the disband feature because the game is screwed up somewhere else. I hope their other "fixes" are better than this one... sigh...

[Fidel]

Now this is stupid... the real problem is the worthless wealth feature, not that you could get more money by building and disbanding units. So now they are just screwing up the disband feature because the game is screwed up somewhere else. I hope their other "fixes" are better than this one... sigh...

but wealth percentage has already been more than doubled in the forthcoming patch

Economy – Increased city wealth setting to 25%

what was it in 4, 50%?