Multiplayer Impressions and Thoughts on Settings

[jobe]

I´ve played a couple of MP Arena games now and would like to share some thoughts regarding possible settings from a "what´s fun", but also "what´s fair and interesting for a competetive game" perspective.

So far we´ve been playing mostly duels and a few ffa games (4-6 people, everyone for himself, not always war).

Duel Setup #1
map options:

• duel sized North_vs_South
• resources: legendary start
• other options default

starting era: Ancient
game speed: quick
game difficulty: Warlord or Prince
options: no Barbarians, no Ancient Ruins, no City States, turn timer enabled
special rules: war declaration on sight (=always war)

North_vs_South duel sized is a relative small map. The key factor though are its spawn points. Player seem to spawn relatively random - there is a "north vs south" aspect to the placement, but it can be anything from close to relatively far apart. Sometimes it´s tough to tell whether your opponent is south or north of you after only a couple of moves - so it´s possible that if you send your warrior away it could be going the "wrong" direction. Often though you start close the the northern or southern border of the map and can tell the general direction your opponent is in.

Normal Resources seems to not be an option. Starting with a cow against someone who doesn´t have a resource is a backbreaking advantage. Abundant Resources might be an option, not sure about Strategic Balance though since that only balances Horse, Iron and other strategic resources. Choles did some testing regarding resources. Legendary resources seems to be the way to go so far since it equals out the playing field and in general increase the tile yield of an empire to a level where producing something in a reasonable amount of time becomes more possible.

Barbarians suck in MP since there will always be one player harrased more than another, simply providing an advantage to one side. Since cities defend themselves, there might be a place for barbarians in a MP setup, I wouln´t use them in duels though. Same thing for Ruins - it´s just random who will profit more.

City States might definitely have a place in MP - not sure though it´s in duels. It´s expensive to get them on your side and you don´t have that money to spare if your opponent is pressuring you with units and would do so if you went for a City State centred strategy. Still City States might be a fine addition in some games. In a teamer one player could focus on them while the other build the units for defense. In an ffa one might have the time to commit to them...

Last but not least, the difficulty level Warlord allows for more buildup before having to hook any happiness resource. It also makes Cultural Policies slighty cheaper and through the additional happiness triggers a first Golden Age faster and much more "automatically". Those don´t necessarily have to be good things - it allows for more options though than Prince.

Duel Setup #2
map options:

• duel sized Inland_Sea
• resources: legendary start
• other options default

starting era: Ancient
game speed: quick
game difficulty: Warlord or Prince
options: no Barbarians, no Ancient Ruins, no City States, turn timer enabled
special rules: war declaration on sight (=always war)

Same settings, but different map. Inland_Sea is bigger and positioning of opponents is more transparent from the start. This results in a longer, more builderish game compared to North_vs_South. The map isn´t nearly as open with only two relatively thin fronts and water in the middle. Of course once units can embark and use the water things get different - especially true in later era starts.

ffa/cton Setup #1
map options:

• Inland_Sea
• map size depending on amount of players
• resources: legendary start
• other options default

starting era: Ancient
game speed: quick
game difficulty: Warlord or Prince
options: no Barbarians, no Ancient Ruins, no City States, turn timer enabled
special rules: ffa allows for diplomacy between players; cton means war declaration on sight, no alliances and generally no communication between players (=always war)

FFA games are fun, but don´t provide a setup for a competetive. If two players ally against you, you don´t have fair odds to win. CTONs on the other hand forbid communication (regarding the game) between players, meaning no alliances or trading.

In general on Inland_Sea you should have two neighbours. Rushing to take one out is likely a bad idea because all your others opponents will build up their empire meanwhile and come with superior forces for you. While there obviously is still a lot of warfare in those kinds of games they allow for more buildup. Aim for general gains for your empire, not relative gains in relation to an opponent like in a duel.


Whoever is interested in Mutiplayer Civ5, activate your MP Arena account here if you already have an Apolyton account and join us in the Apolyton Steam Group´s Chat by clicking "CHAT" here in our main menu. Currently games are mostly run during European and US evening times. So far everything is fun and friendly and games have been played in an enjoyable atmossphere - so join up!

[pdxsean]

I've enjoyed the MP games I've taken part in, although I haven't exactly had the most impressive results. It's a real change from the SP game, and with the fast pace it doesn't really hold the same sort of interest as a SP game. It's much more about building an army quickly than it is about building a civ to "stand the test of time." Most of the MP games I've taken part in last less than 100 turns which is pretty fast for someone who tends to SP on epic speed.

That being said, MP sessions are a lot of fun. And while it is disappointing to lose (especially if you get crushed) it's just as fun to win. And knowing you're playing against a real person rather than the predictable AI adds a lot of excitement and really gives you a lot to think about.

[jobe]

We´ve just played a CTON and I´m very positive my civ would have stand the test of time

You´ve only experienced duels in the crazy North_vs_South and in Civ5 it´s actually true that buildings are tougher to come by, especially in MP and especially in duels. Teamers and 1v1v1vx(=ffa or cton) are different, more builderish.

Still, see it as a challenge to sneak in efficient buildings in a duel! It makes all the difference often. Once you know how to defend, you can build up there as well.

[pdxsean]

I guess when you're the only one left, you're pretty well guaranteed to stand the test of time.

In the last game you and I played, I get the impression you didn't even build any buildings. I know once I get a few more duels under my belt, I'll get a better hang at it. Also, I'll probably be more successful if I play someone who isn't in the top 2 players in the rankings.

I'm really looking forward to some diplogaming, or a successful multi-way game where there's not just a rush to war. We'll get there in time, I imagine.

[Robert Plomp]

The shorter the game will last, the less effective any building will be. A good civ MP duel should somehow imho give advantage to getting wonders and buildings, otherwise the game be too different from the SP game. Maybe buildings and wonders in MP duels should just cost less. There should be some form of scaling. It should be possible to make more decisions.

[jobe]

The shorter the game will last, the less effective any building will be. A good civ MP duel should somehow imho give advantage to getting wonders and buildings, otherwise the game be too different from the SP game. Maybe buildings and wonders in MP duels should just cost less. There should be some form of scaling. It should be possible to make more decisions.

There is no difference to SP - duel. As long as you play it optimally obviously. This game doesn´t favor building buildings in duels, that has nothing to do with SP or MP, but with civ5. Obviously you can build tons of stuff agains the AI in a duel - just it´s not the mathematically correct move in this game.

The difference of SP to MP is that suddenly you have an opponent that wants to defend himself and isn´t a moron (sometimes ). Anything else is dictated by either the game having only two opposing sides or various sides fighting each other (like most SP games).

I´ve seen so many people complain about how warlike civ4 mp is. Almost always those people weren´t able to keep up with buildup and just got crushed with the first wave, because they lacked the skills to micro their empire. From that they deduced that it´s "only about building units". Civ4 MP economies were extremely sophisticated and it was very challenging setting them up while expanding on the military as well. Every worker move, every hammer counts.

MP is less of a simulation then SP. Your every move and timing gets challenged there by a human opponent and micromanagement deficits (worker improvement or tile use in cities e.g.) get reveiled much more.

It´s a different game, but not because it actually IS a different game, but because people chose to make it so. Most SP games I play I´d rather enjoy looking at my shiny empire then playing optimally, especially since my AI opponents can challenge me only through cheats and not through clever behaviour.


P.S. Civ5 costs for anything are too high / tile yields too low. That´s the true underlying problem here that limits the options in games.

P.S.S. @Sean: CTON is a 1v1v1vx game without trading or negotiating with other players, no alliances, no resource exchange, no saying stuff like "i´m attackign xy in 2 turns". In the game (turn limit 110) we played yesterday I built an empire that would have won any deity game .

[Robert Plomp]

I'm not talking MP / SP but duel / ffa-6+ civs.
In a duel you know that it's going to be a war. In a ffa you can't just attack another civ without keeping your own civ defended against other civs.

[Choles]

hmm ok I haven't tried the inland sea duel map, but for 4 ffa it works wonders..

I don't know if you were leading by that much in the game in the end (well points you were in the lead but tech wise etc ?)

but well anyways, I don't think that you "never" build buildings as some claim, you have to build coloseums.

imo I think that buildings should be cheaper, not wonders, wonders usually take shorter time to build than buildings, and that just seems weird, no upkeep

I'll most likely think that, inland sea is better than north and south, cause I've had some really close spawns there, and it's a bit annoying imo.

btw for CTON, when you say no communication, what is it then ? no swearing about some wonder completing, when you have 0 turns left, no swearing about the lack of option to disable unit cycling, no bragging about being 1st in strenght on the diplo overview (that everyone can see) etc.