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Thread: Bad AI is not likely to be fixed

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    Tyrathect
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    Bad AI is not likely to be fixed

    Why? just check history. And I don't mean just civ's. Games with bad AI never got their AI fixed substantially. MoO series, MoM, SMAC and TW series to name a few, all had bad AI. Fixes and unofficial patches/mods always came out and dealt with the most urgent matters, yet the AI always remains on the same general stupidity level. It's really hard to write a decent AI to games, and it's even harder fixing it and raising its level from "bad" to even "barely good".
    It's history folks, and it's hard to argue with that.

    And it also makes me quite sad. I love Civ and I kinda like this game, despite all the issues.

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    Proteus_MST
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    It depends...
    will they give us a patch that raises AI to human levels?
    Surely not...
    will they fix certain annoying things (like pathfinding of your units alway choosing to trespass city state borders)?
    Yes, I definitely hope so

    I think they will even get the AI to work with religion, but very probably this will be stuff for the next expansion pack

    So, it all depends on your expectations
    As part of your equipment, you are to have a trowel, and when you squat outside, you are to scrape a hole with it and then turn and cover your excrement.
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    pdxsean
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrathect View Post
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    MoO series, MoM, SMAC and TW series to name a few, all had bad AI.
    First off, I agree, all of those had bad AI. None of them were fixed.

    On the other hand, take a look at your list there... all of the greatest strategy games of our time have bad AI. Why would we expect any different? Isn't it possible that bad AI is the best anyone can do?

    BTW, I believe that Civ V's strategic AI (that is, the way AI plays their civ) appears to be a big leap above IV. The tactical AI is terrible, they're incompetent generals, but they do a good job of building economic powerhouse nations.
    What's up, hot dog?

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    Dinner
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    Yeah, I think some simple things can be fixed such as Proteus's path finding example.
    "Our scientific power has out run out spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men." - Martin Luther King Jr.
    "A cynical, mercenary, demagogic press will produce in time a people as base as itself."
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    Louis Cyr
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    The AI does not protect its settlers

    I released three settlers from the barbarians, all of the same nation!
    But I like this game anyway

  6. #6
    Dinner
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    Damn, that's a pretty good haul. Kill one barb and get three settlers.
    "Our scientific power has out run out spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men." - Martin Luther King Jr.
    "A cynical, mercenary, demagogic press will produce in time a people as base as itself."
    - Joseph Pulitzer

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    Louis Cyr
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    It was from 3 barbarrians, but anyway, i returned them to their country

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    Dinner
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    What? I would have kept them for myself.
    "Our scientific power has out run out spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men." - Martin Luther King Jr.
    "A cynical, mercenary, demagogic press will produce in time a people as base as itself."
    - Joseph Pulitzer

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    Hauldren Collider
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    The AI has always been ****ing retarded. It's not nearly the worst aspect of this game.

    NO WORLDBUILDER HOW DO I GIVE MYSELF CARRIERS?
    If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
    :(){ :|:& };:

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    Fidel
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    I witnessed some horrific AI in this game. Granted, the setting was pretty challenging, a rocky peninsula in the shape of a horseshoe on which my CS ally held and Siam attacked it. It was idiotic. Siam would camp around and never get a decisive attack, and the CS did not know how to use its units, e.g. instead of parking its crossbowmen in the city it actually got them out in the open sea (not that Siam attacked them, mind you).
    Betas, please report. They might listen to you.

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    Louis XXIV
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauldren Collider View Post
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    The AI has always been ****ing retarded. It's not nearly the worst aspect of this game.

    NO WORLDBUILDER HOW DO I GIVE MYSELF CARRIERS?
    Uh, build them?

    There are a couple of AI fixes I'd like. The first would be the pathfinding thing mentioned above. Go To and Auto Explore should avoid city-states you aren't friendly with at all costs (if it approaches them and has to go through, it'll stop and ask for orders).

    The second is the tactical AI. I feel they'll improve this as they get more of an idea how players play and I'm sure modders will help too. I've heard some people complain that they don't recognize choke points. I haven't experienced this, so I don't know. Perhaps that would be priority number one?
    Beer is proof that God loves you and wants you to be happy - Ben Franklin

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    Fidel
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    The more I think about it, the less optimistic I get. I have no other explanation other than that battle design (1UPH), while more complex and rewarding for human players and their immersion, is too complicated for the AI. I mean, they had a VERY good group of betas, from what I can gather from the credits, and the outcome is AI which sometimes behaves unbelievably badly. It does not understand choke points, it does not understand (still) proper landing and advancing in a tactical formation (unless it has a wide open field). It also seems to have 'blind spots' - e.g. its city will bomb some embarked units, but will spare some (it seems to spare artillery units embarked next to it).

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    Hauldren Collider
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louis XXIV View Post
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    Uh, build them?
    You can't build carriers in 2000 BC
    If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
    :(){ :|:& };:

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    Louis XXIV
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    Why do you want carriers in 2000BC? I assume you want planes to go with them? What's the point of bombing civs back to the stone age if they never left the stone age?

    Anyway, you'll be able to do all this stuff relatively soon. The map editor is getting released by the end of next week if the rumor mill is to be believed and Tuner should be out around the same time. With the map editor, you can give yourself Carriers to start. With tuner, if you have the save file set a certain way, you can basically use debug as a cheat mode to give you whatever you want.
    Beer is proof that God loves you and wants you to be happy - Ben Franklin

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    quinalla
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    While the AI will never be as good as a human player, Firaxis certainly has improved their AI in the past and I expect them to improve the AI in this game as well.
    Jacob's Law "To err is human: to blame it on someone else is even more human."

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    ColdPhoenix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oerdin View Post
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    What? I would have kept them for myself.
    I did that last night but was disappointed to find that the settler then turned into a worker...

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    MxM
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    I am 100% sure that AI will be greatly improved, what I do not know if this greatly improved AI will be done before expansion.

    From another side, the game is more difficult than Civ IV in terms of decision making having consequences that happens far in future (city placement is one example, it is more important than in Civ IV and with greater consequences for the end game. Tactical battles is another example. The complexity of it is equivalent to complexity of checkers). So I do think it is more difficult to write good AI, and actually I am quite impressed what is there already, not in terms of game-play, but in terms of AI programming.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
    certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
    -- Bertrand Russell

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    pauli
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    now LOOK. the ai we got was good enough for civ2, and dammit, it's good enough for civ5!
    it's just my opinion. can you dig it?

  19. #19
    Modo44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrathect View Post
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    Why? just check history.
    Yeah, especially the AI mods for Civ 4 were total crap. Oh, wait...
    Seriously. Kung freaking fu.

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    Heraclitus
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrathect View Post
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    Why? just check history. And I don't mean just civ's. Games with bad AI never got their AI fixed substantially. MoO series, MoM, SMAC and TW series to name a few, all had bad AI. Fixes and unofficial patches/mods always came out and dealt with the most urgent matters, yet the AI always remains on the same general stupidity level. It's really hard to write a decent AI to games, and it's even harder fixing it and raising its level from "bad" to even "barely good".
    It's history folks, and it's hard to argue with that.

    And it also makes me quite sad. I love Civ and I kinda like this game, despite all the issues.
    You do realize that Civ4's AI was significantly improved via patches, since they included improvements from the better AI mod right?
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    The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
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    Heraclitus
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauldren Collider View Post
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    The AI has always been ****ing retarded. It's not nearly the worst aspect of this game.

    NO WORLDBUILDER HOW DO I GIVE MYSELF CARRIERS?
    I AGREE THIS IS A TRAVESTY
    Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
    The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
    The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

  22. #22
    Adagio
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    Creating an AI for a game like Civ is very difficult. I sure hope we'll get a better AI sooner or later (maybe someone will make a better AI mod?)... but there's one thing about the AI that I really hate: The worker AI... The AI keeps on changing tile improvements. 30 turns ago I had a city with farms as far as the eyes could see. Now there's not a single farm left, while there's those trade improvements all over... and what is the AI doing now? Removing all those trade improvements to make them into farms... while there are still some tiles around the map that has not been built on yet
    Until this has been fixed, automating the workers is a big NO NO
    This space is empty... or is it?

  23. #23
    Ming
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    Automated workers in Civ IV sucked as well
    "If black people robbed you, I'd not consider it prejudice for you to be angry at black people in general" - Ben Kenobi
    Lessons in Christianity.

    Keep on Civin'
    RIP Baron O

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    MxM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adagio View Post
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    Creating an AI for a game like Civ is very difficult. I sure hope we'll get a better AI sooner or later (maybe someone will make a better AI mod?)... but there's one thing about the AI that I really hate: The worker AI... The AI keeps on changing tile improvements. 30 turns ago I had a city with farms as far as the eyes could see. Now there's not a single farm left, while there's those trade improvements all over... and what is the AI doing now? Removing all those trade improvements to make them into farms... while there are still some tiles around the map that has not been built on yet
    Until this has been fixed, automating the workers is a big NO NO
    Did you see any correlation of what workers are doing with your happiness/gold income? Because if you have high happiness and good gold income it make sense to put farms. If you income is negative and/or your happiness is around 0 or less, then it is better to put trade posts. I have observed this behaviour myself, but I thought "wow, AI is that smart that it evaluates my needs first and replaces the improvement according to that"!! If you do not like replacement of improvements, just select it in the options, but I do suspect it will be less than optimal.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
    certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
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    Dactyl
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    There's one simple thing they could do that would slow down early rushes by human players. Right now you can wreak havoc on the AI civs with three or four horsemen and a great general. It doesn't even matter if the city you're attacking has walls. It'll just take a turn longer to conquer the city. Why not make it virtually impossible to take a city without siege equipment? That would slow down rushes because the catapults or trebuchets wouldn't be able to keep up with the mounted units. It would also make city walls a meaningful defensive upgrade.

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    dregor
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dactyl View Post
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    There's one simple thing they could do that would slow down early rushes by human players. Right now you can wreak havoc on the AI civs with three or four horsemen and a great general. It doesn't even matter if the city you're attacking has walls. It'll just take a turn longer to conquer the city. Why not make it virtually impossible to take a city without siege equipment? That would slow down rushes because the catapults or trebuchets wouldn't be able to keep up with the mounted units. It would also make city walls a meaningful defensive upgrade.
    They would then have to make catapults and trebuchets not require Iron, which they currently do. And honestly, it's a band-aid fix and doesn't address the problem.
    - Dregor

  27. #27
    Tyrathect
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heraclitus View Post
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    You do realize that Civ4's AI was significantly improved via patches, since they included improvements from the better AI mod right?
    Nope. Civ4 BTS AI with latest patch still sucks.

  28. #28
    ColdPhoenix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrathect View Post
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    Nope. Civ4 BTS AI with latest patch still sucks.
    It wasn't perfect but most people agree it was decent as far as AI for a pretty complex game goes. Would you like to expand on what you think was wrong with it?

  29. #29
    Tyrathect
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColdPhoenix View Post
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    It wasn't perfect but most people agree it was decent as far as AI for a pretty complex game goes. Would you like to expand on what you think was wrong with it?
    I agree it was decent in comparison to other 4X titles. Still quite dumb though, and I don't think the BTS AI was a major improvement upon the original, only an incremental one.
    What's wrong about it? I can give you some examples. It still can't conduct a successful marine invasion. It can't properly prioritize different fronts in warfare. It still builds a shitload amount of unnecessary naval units. It still tries to conquer the same border city wave-by-wave with too few siege units, instead of massing a single stack and steamroll you in a single attack. All you have to do is just have enough archers/longbowmen/infantry with defensive bonuses in one city and you're fixed for a massive XP farming. After he finishes throwing his entire army at you, all you have to do is just retaliate and conquer his cities one by one with ease.

  30. #30
    Zoetstofzoetje
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    I just managed to tinker Civ5 into working on my computer yesterday. Not quite sure what the problem is, but my video card is not accepted. Through a trick with a USB video card I managed to get it up and running. The funny thing is that the USB video card (a displayport) actually uses the capabilities of my normal video card (ATI X1300) to run. Anyway.

    I found the game to be quite fun in the early and mid-game. The new mechanics operate in the same way as I used to run my Civ4 games. I always turned off research trading, put the game on epic, and the loss of the slider means long-term planning is more important. At worst it decreases your flexibility.

    On my continents map however, the AI's never built more than one extra city. The city-state system, while novel and potentially very interesting, is simplistic at present. What's worse, the AI had armies of warriors at a point where I had a prosperous 12 city empire. This is on King, mind you. Every now and then they would spawn better units (pikemen, horsemen), but never more than one.

    Why did the AI never get around to building more than a second city? Why did they not upgrade or replace their warriors?

    The key issue with Civ5 is definitely AI. I love this new combat system, it allows for all kinds of ingenious strategies. A smart player can use terrain and circumstance to their advantage. It's fabulous. But it's a bridge too far for the AI. Or two or three bridges.

    This game should not have been released yet.

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