Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Thats fine with me. Inca is next to pick then

[Russia (DoE)]

Well if you would like to do that approach then the weakest of the four should have first pick..

and that being Neandor, I would pick Ottomans just for the hell of it

HAHAHAHAHAH!!!

Yes, I was thinking about this approach and then came to this example - Neandor picking Turkey, laughed myself a bit and decided the wild picking isnt too good of approach.

SO:

The starting groups should start somewhat predetermined like this: Inca/England, Neandor/France/Vikings, Russia/Turkey. From here, our team is the weakes, so we have the first pick. Then Inca/England pick, then Neandor

I think this is far more reasonable, right?

But then again we come to Arabia/India being a group on their own and they are so closely related to the Axis (Arabia giving them Oil, Neandr upgrading infantries, sharing common hate for the Comunists - absolutely irrational hate btw), that the axis already is composed of Neandor/France/Vikings/Arabia/India. Thats 5.

Then maybe the other two groups - Inca/England and Russia/Turkey must start and choose the from what is left and each of us ends with group of 5.

This will be logical, right?

[Calanthian]

That could work..

[OzzyKP]

That would be a very strong Axis.

[Inca (DoE)]

That would be a ridiculously underpowered democratic bloc. Seriously, me and England are all navy and MGs.

Inca-England-Arabia-Israel-America
Vikings-Neandor-France-Mali-India
Russia-Turkey-Mongolia-Japan-Natives

A few things: if I'm not in an alliance with Russia, I'm going to demand final payment for the LTA troops and my IEF forces returned. Those were contingent on our continued good relations (my not forcing them to pay for the territories they've leased). I never expected our alliance to be suddenly canceled like this, and I consider those payments owed. The Turks may have petrolla returned, of course, as I am leasing it from them. I figure all other contracts are forfeit, and I'll pay the Arabs back for the troops that will now never arrive. I also expect my airship returned ASAP...

[Calanthian]

Discussion with Ozzy and Inca has led to the following proposal:

Fascist Alliance:
Neandor-Arabia-Vikings-India-Egypt

Communist Alliance:
Russia-Native America-Ottomans-Mongolia-Mali

Democrat Alliance:
England-Inca-America-Japan-France

(the only item being that France must be available and playing)

[Russia (DoE)]

That would be a ridiculously underpowered democratic bloc.

Why would be underpowered? We will start picking from a point where Inca-England and Russia-Turkey are set. From there on, we choose. As-is Inca-England have stronger economy and military power than Russia-Turkey. Why would be underpowered Democrats?

Seriously, me and England are all navy and MGs.

What you are trying to say with that? Let look at it this way - Hypothetically the Communist want to attack the Democrats. How we can hurt you? Swimming under the ocean by hands holding their breath (as you control it and we cant risk sailing with ships) then once set foot in America, we suicide our infantries against your tens of trenched MGs while being bombarded from the air and our way to retreat cut by your destroyers? So we cant attack nor hurt you.

Lets assume you want to hurt us or the Fascists. Sailing and blockading the Mediterranean, while bombarding our roads, mines, farms and plantations, staying with your 20-30 or so infantries loaded in transports (yes, only in Central America I upgraded about 10-12 for you, then from the IEF you have 6 more and England have about 10 infantries) looking which city we will empty (as we cant defend all our cities against force of 20-30 infantries which can strike surprising at each place they desire.

Then what? How you are supposed to be the weaker one?

[Russia (DoE)]

Fascist Alliance:
Neandor-Arabia-Vikings-India-Egypt

wont work from start, as the Axis are without Oil again.

The only reasonable (and somewhat logical considering what happened in the game and the players feelings) Axis is

Neandor/France/Vikings/Arabia/India

Despite it is a bit overpowered, let give them the chance they claimed they never had till now.

[Calanthian]

If that one damn oil will stop us from having a nice game: I'll say:

add one oil somewhere in central fascist territory and then we are set to go..

I for one don't mind who is winning as long as the game is good..

[Calanthian]

If we talk to long we'll talk to game to it's death..

[Inca (DoE)]

Wait, Arabia doesn't have oil? What?

[Russia (DoE)]

Please, consider also that the relative in-game-strength is one thing, the strength and determination of the players playing them is even more important. The considered pathetic India and Arabia were able to defeat the mighty Chinese army! Why? Because they are humans and they are determined, while despite having smashing advantage in units and power, China have lost being played wrong by the AI.

And what we see in the Axis - mzprox - in-game winner in the last two diplo-games. Toni - another in-game winner from previous diplo-game. Calanthian - determined and very active player. Lzprst - a civ veteran and determined active player. France player I dont know who is, but he proved able to plan and fight pretty well - Turkey and England can attest this. So what we have in the Axis - few proven champions and the rest of them are active and determined players.

What the Commies will get? Russia and Turkey - ok, we know them. But the rest? Natives - to me he looks all-round stable player, but first he lack military, then until now he NEVER showed a will to fight, nor he stained his hands with blood. He might be the bravest warrior, waiting his fury to be unleashed, and he might be a pacifist by heart, drawing aside from fight. At least his economy is decent Mali - pathetic economy, but at least he proved his spirit in fighting 2 wars. Additional bonus is he have somewhat decent army. Not near the French, but still he is not like Mongolia.

Oh, Mongolia... what to say about Mongolia... The second biggest territory and the weakest economy on this world. Even Azteca with their one city make more GPT than Mongolia. To add to this, Mongolia's army is the weakest and most outdated in this game. They have like 10 keshiks, 10 pikes and 5 catapults. Not to mention we did not hear from them since all this started, meaning they dont have much time IRL or they just lost interest in the game. Good tactician human playing Mongolia will barely make difference, what to speak about AI if their player is not playing anymore?

So what you are giving us isnt too bright, but well... We are willing to take the challenge. It was all for - right? Some guys considered themselves unfairly handicapped in this game, while we like challenges. Here is the opportunity everyone to have his part of the fun.

Vikings-Neandor-France-India-Arabia
Inca-England-Japan-America-Israel
Russia-Turkey-Natives-Mali-Mongolia

This and a bit longer NAP (20 turns?) and Open Borders, so we can discuss possible scenarios, get our forces together, get moving and our alliances working.

[Russia (DoE)]

Wait, Arabia doesn't have oil? What?

Hmm.. I am quite sure Arabia wasnt there from the first time. Either someone edited this, or I am sleeping and dreaming Anyway...

[America (DoE)]

Wait, Arabia doesn't have oil? What?

[Calanthian]

Yes you have..

The proposed list was:

Fascist Alliance:
Neandor-Arabia-Vikings-India-Egypt

Communist Alliance:
Russia-Native America-Ottomans-Mongolia-Mali

Democrat Alliance:
England-Inca-America-Japan-France

And maybe even switch Japan to communist..

[Arabia2 (doe)]

Oh.. I see where it is going.. If we would win we would be told: "See Crybabies, we told you", If you would win you were just great and won against overhelming odds because the Axis is so overpowered, they just stupid and don't realize it

[Russia (DoE)]

Guys, I think we are going nowhere. We are arguing over something that we are not even agree we want - the 3-way dividing.

Not to mention I still think 3 -way will not work.

If the Axis is complaining we are overpowered in the configuration the game currently is, then exclude Inca - he is not eager to fight anyway. Let he be the universal trader and banker - he gives equal or auction terms to the two alliances - and the game continues as it was.

[America (DoE)]

Alliances in my opinion will only create more discussion: it causes people to once again focus on winning/balancing/etc instead of on diplogaming, ie writing stories/thinking up cool plots/etc. It also turns this game into a military thing; it will just be about an all out war, and not so much about the stories I think. I'd say, drop the alliances and let the story thread decide who allies with who.

Then again, if the majority wants the alliances, I will of course play, and I will certainly enjoy it

[Arabia2 (doe)]

I think it would be much better if we would start a new game in the industrial era with advanced start with full of active players.

If you really want to continue this I will stay, but I don't like the idea of these fixxed alliances especially when our views are not even close about balance. Let's restart the game and let the alliances work out for themselves-ie we try to forget past alliances and start clean (then everyone jumps on Russia :P)

[Inca (DoE)]

I'm also perfectly fine not being a part of an alliance only if it means I'm not going to be carved up as soon as possible by the alliance system (think Natives).

[Russia (DoE)]

If you really want to continue this I will stay, but I don't like the idea of these fixxed alliances especially when our views are not even close about balance. Let's restart the game and let the alliances work out for themselves-ie we try to forget past alliances and start clean (then everyone jumps on Russia :P)

good one. There was a movie (History of the World) in which King Louis is playing chess on a giant chessboard and the chess figures are alive people. The Queen is attractive and the king commands:

"Knight jumps Queen! Bishop jumps Queen! Pawns jump Queen!
Gangbang! Come on jump the Queen!"

So here your chance will be, pawns and fodders To gangbang the Queen

I think it would be much better if we would start a new game in the industrial era with advanced start with full of active players.

Joke aside, I am perfectly OK with that. I wanted to see some modern warfare action. T34 vs Panzers come in mind Battleships, submarines attacking from the gulfs, bombarding, fighters fighting in the sea... ehhh... Cat driving red sport car, short skirts, spies, etc, etc... Shame on those who ruined such a great game.

I'm also perfectly fine not being a part of an alliance only if it means I'm not going to be carved up as soon as possible by the alliance system (think Natives).

This was what I had in mind - independent banker and supplier of the world.

[Japan (DoE)]

Yes you have..

The proposed list was:

Fascist Alliance:
Neandor-Arabia-Vikings-India-Egypt

Communist Alliance:
Russia-Native America-Ottomans-Mongolia-Mali

Democrat Alliance:
England-Inca-America-Japan-France

And maybe even switch Japan to communist..

I dont want to be a democrat. that would leave me all alone with my closest help being on the other side of the world. I want to be traded to the communist alliance.

[Russia (DoE)]

Yeah, baby! Everyone wants to be a communist!

Bandera rossa la triumvera!

Viva communismo e liberta!

[Russia (DoE)]

Catherine is the coolest, sexiest and most magnetic chick on this Earth!

All right, we got white commie, black commie, ottoman commie, yellow commie, we got hot commie, cold commie, we got wet commie.... Come on in you commie lovers!

[Japan (DoE)]

[Russia (DoE)]

While waiting for a decision to be made (half the players are not voted yet in the survey), I am back-reading to adress some things which was said these last few days.

Yes, we were afraid of what you, the Russian alliance could do. We were afraid that if we attacked someone that we would get stabbed in the back because you guys had us surrounded (England, Russia, Turks, and Mali, plus whatever could come up from the Incas). We were intent on defending ourselves and getting machine guns, etc. for that purpose, and attacking someone else was never discussed until after the great war when France and I were pondering attacking the Inca.

You might be surprised, but I was afraid too. I was deadly scared trough the most of the game of your advanced and outnumbering armies. We were scared of your might at the sea, we were cursing that we are separated and we cant make a united front to combat your united forces. We were afraid that if we lose the war, we will follow the English fate - our capitols taken, our oldest cities taken and we expelled from Europe to live in the tundras and rocky mountains in Asia. We were afraid by your merciless warring approach. We suspected everyone after the Israeli betrayal. We were 2 times THIS close to giving up and asking for mercy. And yet we fought. We kept the faith. And as the war continued, I studied your way of warring and strategic decision making. I wondered myself "Why?" and one afternoon - I remember it - it came to me that you were scared of us! And I said this to Turkey - I said him: "You know what? Those guys are afraid of us. They are already lost the war in their hearts and minds"

You were afraid to attack and you were preparing for defense - while you were building frigates to defend your shores, we built transports ships to attack your shores. When you were building grenadiers and cannons to defense in your territory, we were building rifles and cossacks to attack your territories and chase your cannons. You were producing Ironclads to defend your shores, while we were building SOTLs to outmaneuver your powerful, but slow ships and attack you in your back yard. When you were going for MGs to make your border cities unassailable and kept your population and GNP high, we slaved/drafted all our cities and threw everything to attack you at your territory.

You were preparing to defend, and we were preparing to attack. You lost, and we won. The bluff was a bluff - England gave me explicit orders to NOT RAZE your Holy City. But this was not only empty ships counting only you to take the bluff. Contrary to England's memories, those were not 3 galleons, but 30 of the best land units England could muster - triple CityAttack promoted grenadiers and cannons, double hill promoted units, all the Rifles Russia managed to send England... It was formidable army, able not only to capture, but hold the 3 Viking cities. Not to mention that the Russian Cossacks were going to capture Arctica the very next turn and from there, ALL the Viking cities were laying open for attack, as the Viking rifles were locked against 40 Russian soldiers in Nordica. With the breach in the North, Russia and England was about to join forces and with the 10 galleons we were able to capture any French north city we desire, as they were guarded by a single warrior or archer each - everything the Axis had, was sent to Neandor City and Nordica to hold the Russian storm. In the Med the things were grim for the Axis too - Grunzen City was captured by the Turks, Venetii was about to fall - the Turkish army with cannons and 20 rifles was to land on the hills near Venetii and the Russian garrison from Greece was in position to join them in the assault.

In the same time, the main French army and a lot of Viking units too, was on the British Isles, protecting their war spoil, because I made some fierce attacks there with England to draw the attention of the Axis away from North Africa, so we can neutralize the Israeli. Then I retreated Dublin and France sent their army to capture it. Well done - When you gather your army together to defend Britannia, the England fleet just sailed beside them at full sails with the wind and was in position to threaten the empty 3 Viking north-west cities. Check (and as it turned one turn later - check-mat )

It was not just bluff, guys - sorry. This bluff ended the war and brought us the win, but it was not our only weapon It was just nice tool to save us some 50-100 units, while keeping the Axis competitive, so a major showdown to be guaranteed in 50 turns.

And now, one good move, 15 destroyers on on the bottom of Berlin port to serve as a playground of the fishes combined with the old fear from the seemingly invincible arch-enemy had spoiled this showdown, for which we both - Axis and Allies were preparing so long and so dedicated.

Pity, yes, but ...

[India (DoE)]

The only players who REALLY want forced realignment are Arabia, India, Vikings and Germany. All the realignment talk by others is an accommodation for these 4. That is the truth.

Can you read? I (Lzprst) voted for NO ENFORCED ALLIANCES.

[India (DoE)]

so, wait, Russia, you are saying that you are not as weak as you have been claiming all game and that you in fact would have won a crushing victory against the axis?

This alliance arguing is pointless, I say we end it and go with no enforced alliances.

Or, Why don't we just start a new game...?

[Russia (DoE)]

Now I will be completely honest - if the war was continued, I just dont know what would happen. We might crush the Axis, and we might be crushed ourselves. We were at the end of our power and reserves. We put everything we had on the table.

War is risky endeavor. If I have a way to avoid it and still got what I want - why would I fight?

[Russia (DoE)]

so, wait, Russia, you are saying that you are not as weak as you have been claiming all game and that you in fact would have won a crushing victory against the axis?

I was weak at many times. Do you read? I was scared - I was shivering from fear. But I never showed this and no one never knew. So to all my enemies and allies, I looked as a rock-solid and predetermined winner.

Now I remember something funny - it was when we was negotiating the GP deal and our NAP - after we signed everything, you said something like: India wants Russia to promise to be gracious victor when she win the war. I said to myself "WTF? how this guy is so sure I will win the war? It seems everyone is sure of something I myself have so much doubts." In fact, these your words gave me confidence, that at least from the side I was looking strong and sure in my victory. This was at the time when I was about to get Rifles for first time.

Later on, with the advance of the war, with few tens of rifles and cossacks under my command, I felt better about my chances.

And right now, I feel a bit more secure than in 10 turns ago. I can assure you - if just now, I log in as Neandor and you log in as Russia, I will take Moscow from you. Do you believe me? How this compares to Axis claims to be weak and Russia to be monstrous?