Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[DNK]

I wanted to wait for the full discussion on this during the likely vote, but I think it's best to weigh in now. From what I've heard and put together so far:

Germany has done nothing wrong. On the contrary, its actions are entirely logical, expectable, and appropriate given its situation. I think Germany clearly starts with the most difficult spot on the map. It has two creative civs on its X-axis borders that will likely be settling towards it, and then the Ottomans who will likely be pushing towards it to the south as Arabia will likely be first to get a settler out and will very likely grab the rest of Mesopotamia before the Ottomans: pushed in from all sides. For these reasons, Germany (and the Ottomans) had little option but aggressive military action early on in order to assure its ability to operate a functional and competitive civilization.

France, on the other hand, starts with the easiest T1 European start: it has a cultural trait, one to two peninsulas to backfill (plus African lands to the south), and really only one direct continental challenge unless the British get aggressive with their expansion. That France then decides to make a clear land grab into German and Ottoman lands with no military defenses is ridiculous. It is ridiculous in an IG sense as no ancient leader would have lasted long extending himself far into a highly contested region with no real military; it is ridiculous in an OOC sense as no player would expect that to work either. This is especially the case given France's IG needling and animosity-brewing with Germany. If France wishes to play "insult the Germans" with its IG character, expand into German lands, not produce a military, face a clearly barbaric and militaristic opponent so unarmed, and then claim rules have been broken after the Germans retaliate, it has itself violated the rules of common sense, as proof of such rule breaking has not been forthcoming save France's own stated interpretation of said rules.

France made a clear gamble based on a loose interpretation of the rules, and that gamble backfired quite expectedly. It would appear that Germany has played its hand to the best of its abilities and France has made a serious, clear blunder, and now for some reason this is resulting in Germany being put on the defensive and feeling the need to quit. This is not an acceptable state of affairs, especially if Germany were to leave.

[Robert Plomp]

France is officially out. He just feels like he had a wrong perception of what diplogaming is about.
I'm now looking for a tmp-sub and a perm sub. I have asked someone to sub already. If he won't answer before the end of today then I'll sub for France myself for now while looking for another player.

I think that we also need a perm-sub for the Mali.
Someone already talked about a friend of him willing to sub, please PM me about that. I'm lost in 200 PM's and can't find it.
The original Mali player most probably won't return so we need a perm sub there as well.

[OzzyKP]

Lets get this show back on the road.

[Robert Plomp]

Ok, we're ready to proceed.
I'm not restarting the server, in a couple of minutes we're back on track.

In short, this was the dispute:
France built his 2nd city, Venice, on a place that was IC considered to be placed in territory that gave France an advantage (IC!) and therefore needed to be dealt with. First the Ottomans offered a settler for that city, which was rejected, then Germany approached it with armies. The city itself was undefended or barely defended.

At that moment France asked for a pause b/c losing his city was considered to be 'unmeasured' by the 'unmeasured war' definition, because it was his 2nd city. He also had troubles with Germany and Ottomans 'teaming up' at this stage of the game for RP reasons.
Most people agreed that he was wrong on the assumption that it was against the measured war policy to lose this city for various reason. He then said he based his actions on his understanding of one of my posts.
Then he concluded that he didn't like this kind of gaming and had different ideas about diplogaming.

I'm not going to judge him for his reasons. I'm sorry that he's leaving us (he's a new player in the diplo scene, I'll leave it to himself to share his name here or not) and I hoped that he would accept to continue.
Personally I do not think that Germany or the Ottomans did anything wrong.

Unfortunately things were a little bit unguided at first b/c of my vacation. Thanks to OzzyKP for picking up from there.
I closed the thread b/c I couldn't 'monitor' it as a game leader while being away from internet. I'm sorry that that caused an unpretty feeling for some, who felt like they weren't able to talk about it.

Right now there's a good player who wants to TMP sub for France.
Depending on how France is positioned right now he may decide to perm-sub it. He's aware of the situation.
I'll keep his name anonymous for obvious reasons.

The status now is that we continue from where we were before we paused.
I'll leave it to "New France" to deal with this situation.

Thanks for all involved parties for keeping this within control, no yelling, etc.
I'm very sorry that we lost a new player
I think it was unneeded, but I also learned that we should also spell out more detailed what measured war is. Maybe not with more text but with more clear text. We also must keep in mind that this tier1 situation was pretty special.
Having said that, we've had games before where someone's 2nd city was stolen (Persia, (evil guy!) did it with Russia last game)

Anyway, let's continue.

[England (DoE)]

Sorry to see France go... But I guess you guys did all you could to find a solution to this dispute. Best to continue on for the good of the game.

[France (DoE)]

Hi everyone, had some trouble starting up this game even when I followed the instructions, hopefully solved now. I've sent a pm to Germany, maybe we can end this war. (My capital is a little bit too close to England's.. don't really like crwoded maps.. )

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

don't really like crwoded maps

Oh dear, you ain't going to like Europe then. And I wouldn't get the English started on how close your captial is to theirs - you will find they rather blame you for it!

But great to have you on board.

[England (DoE)]

[Native America (DoE)]

Pretty much sums up being English, yep.

[England (DoE)]

Bloody frogs!!

[Germany (DoE)]

Bloody frogs!!

uh grunt.

[Germany (DoE)]

I am staying in the game, not leaving.

I like the new French player and we have virtually sorted things out.

Unfortunately I have dumped a load on RP so I feel OK now

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Unfortunately I have dumped a load on RP so I feel OK now

Self-dumping - that is a wierd fetish you have there mr germany.

[Germany (DoE)]

Self-dumping - that is a wierd fetish you have there mr germany.

fart. grunt. many other weird fetish! neandor and turk much in common...

[France (DoE)]

To reflect on Robert's post, I took France temporary, I told him that I might change my mind, but it doesn't really depend on France 's position, much more on how much time I can commit to a pitboss game, especially to a diplo game.. it's quite time consuming. I can definitely play for a week or two, but these games as far as I know could last for a year or more, that I can't promise.
sp please look for a perm. sub, untill then I will do my best to help France (making some living place)(by eliminating a few neighbor)

[Robert Plomp]

I'll look around for a perm sub, France.
This one won't last for a year. We have a pretty fast turn-timer agreed on.

If people don't yell too much at each other we should be able to finish it within 6 months

[France (DoE)]

Hey England, don't be mad.. you settled almost as close to me as I did to you. Look at the bright side: when we hold a festival in Paris you can hear and dance to our music as well, the water carries the sound quite well.

[Germany (DoE)]

I hope OK with France but I play before him as war is settled. And we don't want timer increases.

[St Jon]

Robert, it looks like we have another clever little Ad-Bot.

[Robert Plomp]

Thanks
You can use the 'report post' if there's spam!
I'll then get a PM with a URL!
Press the 'exclamation mark in a triangle' in the bar below any post to 'report' it!

[Robert Plomp]

Welcome to the new Mali Player!!
Thanks for stepping in, we hope you'll enjoy it!

From now on it's forbidden to leave the game

[Israel (DoE)]

Great Mali player, please have mercy on your Egyptian neighbours!

[OzzyKP]

No mercy! Any civ spending that much time building wonders must be open for attack and must have plenty of loot and plunder for the taking.

[Israel (DoE)]

Please don't attack us!
We are weak and vulnurable!
We beg you to have mercy on us!

*Egyptian people hide behind Great Wall*

[Native America (DoE)]

No mercy! Any civ spending that much time building wonders must be open for attack and must have plenty of loot and plunder for the taking.

So go attack them, oh mighty TurkoRussoNeanderFrenchies!

[India (DoE)]

By all logic how is it possible that I can have met the Germans already?

[Russia (DoE)]

Our German cousins courage is well known. Their fame runs before them.

[Germany (DoE)]

By all logic how is it possible that I can have met the Germans already?

You're next

[ my scout bumped into you. i said greetings but was ignored... ]

[Germany (DoE)]

Our German cousins courage is well known. Their fame runs before them.

Cousins that are a little close for comfort

[Israel (DoE)]

Egypt is very nervous about a certain 'OzzyKP' who is by our knowledge not tied to any nation, calling for attacks on our nation.
Please, great OzzyKP, reveal the nation for which you speak so that we know who to fear.