My god, this new design is ugly.

[germanos]

black on white is boring.

I have zero problems

perhaps are some of you copying each other's complaints

some dogma's like "no white on black"

this style just never got a chance from some of you.

Je hebt een bord voor je kop

[Robert Plomp]

Thanks for the explanation, LDICesare. It helps a lot to understand.
What I do not understand is what you say about the width. It is known that it's easier to read a narrow column then a wide one. (that's why newspapers publish in columns). Reading wide lines is very unpleasant. Still many of you claim that the wide style is better. Can you explain that?

The Astygmat thing may explain why it works good for me and not for you. It's indeed a good reason in itself to offer an alternate style.

[Closey]

Thanks for the explanation, LDICesare. It helps a lot to understand.
What I do not understand is what you say about the width. It is known that it's easier to read a narrow column then a wide one. (that's why newspapers publish in columns). Reading wide lines is very unpleasant. Still many of you claim that the wide style is better. Can you explain that?

The Astygmat thing may explain why it works good for me and not for you. It's indeed a good reason in itself to offer an alternate style.

Hmm.. Interesting.. I'm astygmatic as well so that probably is a big reason why I have a problem with it. It's the same IRL in the dark too btw. Say there's a neon light far away (but still in a readable distance if I'm wearing my glasses) the colour would sort of bleed into the dark surroundings and make it hard to read. Same effect here I guess but on a much smaller scale.

About the width.. I'll probably use the narrower width, esp if I'll ever browse with a maximized browser on my monitor at home, a 24". Then again.. I almost never do because it makes sites way too stretched..

Edit: An exampel of a forum with (for me and my eyes at least) perfect colors is http://forums.gentoo.org/. Not saying that you guys have to use the same design or anything but black on different shades of light blue is really pleasant for me to read at least.

[Robert Plomp]

Je hebt een bord voor je kop

You quote half my line, in the first half I questioned myself ("Am I just weird, am I in denial"), and in the 2nd half I questioned others, then I concluded by saying that it's hard to say with little info and that that's why I'm inquiring more.

And as you can see, it helps if we try to get close to the source by having more questions.
I'm sorry that you explain "asking more questions" as being deaf for complains.

[Robert Plomp]

Hmm.. Interesting.. I'm astygmatic as well so that probably is a big reason why I have a problem with it.

Can other people who have troubles reading the board also confirm this?
I feel we're getting closer.

[LDiCesare]

I don't know about the width, but here's a possible explanation. all I really know is it feels better with the wide style:
It's probably a question of control/settings. I have set the width of my browser window to be optimal for me for reading most sites. Almost all other forums I go to use the whole length, so my browser size is just fine for that. (There's one notable exception here: http://forums.elementalgame.com notice they have dark but not black background, and it doesn't stand out as aggressive. I still don't like it aesthetically, but it's not so hard on the eyes.)
So by having shorter width in the forums, poly just goes against the settings and I should have to adjust the window size for just this site because it uses a convention different from others.

[germanos]

You quote half my line, in the first half I questioned myself ("Am I just weird, am I in denial"), and in the 2nd half I questioned others, then I concluded by saying that it's hard to say with little info and that that's why I'm inquiring more.

And as you can see, it helps if we try to get close to the source by having more questions.
I'm sorry that you explain "asking more questions" as being deaf for complains.

The closest to the source of the problem is the fact you find the white on black scheme boring, which you stated in your first line.
The fact that you surround your suspicions on the nature of the opposition against the black on white scheme (dogma, copycats, plain unwillingness) with questions doesn't hide the fact that you are deaf for complaints.

What excactly is the problem with adding a black on white scheme? Will it in any way hurt your preferred style for your website? I simply don't understand why it needs so much discussion and why first your paranoia needs to be quelled before you allow members of the community choose their own preferred style, which is actually the printing-industry standard since Gutenberg started playing in his toolshed.

If you want to be special, fine.

You are a very special person Robert.

There, i've said it.

Now, can we have white on black?

[conmcb25]

Also, there is a reason why all editors and nearly all websites give dark text on white background when there is a lot of text to read. Reading forums written in white on black is painful. My eyes are aching.

I gotta agree with this sentiment.

I am going to my settings to see if there are any different skins for this site, if not I won't be back until there are. My old eyes can't tolerate this format.

[Robert Plomp]

germanos, to create a good alternate design, we need to know first what's wrong with the initial design. Things aren't as simplistic as you apparently think. A design is not just "black on white". Especially not if you don't know the exact problem.
Your complaint that I am deaf for complaints is pointless and baseless. I am here, listening to people, but not without asking questions. Is that what you have against me? That I have questions to the complainers? Don't be wrong, there are many sorts of complaints, and the best ones are the ones that can stand through critical questions in return.

Many people complain with one liners. That's pretty useless.
It's only thanks to people like LDiCesare and Closey (and many others) that we can actually right the wrongs.
Not thanks to people who just drop their crap and get angry later if some questions are asked in return.

It has been promised on the first day of the launch that new styles will be created.
This has been repeated many times. But just changing white for black and black for white is not going to help.

[germanos]

germanos, Your complaint that I am deaf for complaints is pointless and baseless.

Pointless, yes. Baseless, no.

You listen but do not hear, you're looking but fail to see. In plenty of posts above people have said that white on black hurts their eyes, makes them tired, gives them problems to read etc. They all ask for a black on white (or dark on light if you prefer) because they KNOW it's easier for them. Yet you take of on a tangent of dogma, copycat and sheer unwillingness on their part. That is sticking your head in the sand.

In the past few days I've read too many posters saying they visit the site less. And plenty of them are regulars. You and your team made a great effort of renewing the site, and you're appriciated for it. But it's time to kill some darlings. A hard part in any project. But I suggest you get a dark on light skin soon: you're loosing momentum, and posters.

[Robert Plomp]

germanos, I did not question their remarks, I tried to find out what caused their problems.
I was not able to 'reproduce' their troubles, I read things pretty ok.
So that's why I started to ask questions.

Maybe you read my posts with a negative prejustice, then indeed evertything sounds like I have no ears.
Now read it with a positive pre-justice, and you'll see that I'm just inquiring.

Once again: I heard the complains of people, then I started to try to find out what the exact problem was.
I am dealing on a day to day basis with feedback of people on new software. It is important to ask questions to get to the source of the problem. Especially if you want to fix it without introducing new problems with the same source.

Just don't be so negative against us, poly admins.
Jeroen created 3 new styles within 3 hours after people started to complain.
And that's already very very very nice of him, after you consider that he worked 7 evenings in a row on the migration, till very very late night.

This negative attitude is not going to get us anywhere.

[Ben Kenobi]

Robert why don't you explain why you don't want the Poly black on white?

All you've said is that it is boring.

Every product has a brand. Poly's brand has always been black on white.

[Robert Plomp]

How do others like this forum style: http://forums.elementalgame.com/390455
Is it better? Is it worse? If it is better, is it good enough?

[Robert Plomp]

I'm from now on ignoring people who talk about the process to get to a new style instead of helping to get there.

[gribbler]

How do others like this forum style: http://forums.elementalgame.com/390455
Is it better? Is it worse? If it is better, is it good enough?

It's slightly better, I still hate black backgrounds.

[CanuckSoldier]

Robert why don't you explain why you don't want the Poly black on white?

All you've said is that it is boring.

Every product has a brand. Poly's brand has always been black on white.

Yes I agree that the dark blue and dark grey is better and not as glaring to the eyes as white on black, I'm still not a big fan of really dark themes, but that would be a welcome option.

CS

[hexagonian]

Black type on white/black type on tan/black type on light grey/black type on light blue

Alternate each post with grey/white background, tan/white or some other color combo to offer contrasts and to define each post.

Perhaps use black/reverse type for the post count bar...

The simple truth is that reverse type is harder on the eyes, especially in large chucks of text. Since there are a lot of long-winded people here, more headaches all around.

[hexagonian]

More headaches lead to more short tempers, which leads to more posters saying inane and ill-thought out off-the-cuff remarks, which leads to more work for the admins because they have to ban more posters.

[Asher]

Hmm.. Interesting.. I'm astygmatic as well so that probably is a big reason why I have a problem with it.

Can other people who have troubles reading the board also confirm this?
I feel we're getting closer.

Robert, it doesn't matter.

People are clamouring for a black-on-white theme. Provide it. It's the standard on the web for a reason. This whole nonsense of asking why people prefer it shows you are missing the point completely.

This site should exist to service the community, not to make a fashion statement. Your first mistake was hiring someone who doesn't frequent forums to design a forum theme. Your second mistake is dragging this out by ignoring the obvious.

[Closey]

How do others like this forum style: http://forums.elementalgame.com/390455
Is it better? Is it worse? If it is better, is it good enough?

It's a bit better.. I still wouldn't call it good though. It's not quite as straining so I would probably have to sit reading it for a while to say for certain how much of a bother it would be.

Their quote boxes are easier to read than the main posts however. That shade of grey is lighter so it helps.

Edit: Oh and hexagonian's suggestion sounds like a good idea. alternating two light shades between posts also makes for easier reading. Breaks up what otherwise might feel like a wall of text. Doesn't have to be a big difference between posts. Here's an example of it with shades of blue (gentoo forums again)

[Robert Plomp]

@Asher: it does matter, or we'll create a new style and many will still have problems.
And a black on white implementation is much harder b/c everything then must be changed.

@CS, @Hex and @Closey: thanks for your input.

@All: Jeroen is working now on something completely different (for Apolyton) which is pretty huge and important, after that, and when he has time, he'll start working on the style.

[Closey]

@Asher: it does matter, or we'll create a new style and many will still have problems.
And a black on white implementation is much harder b/c everything then must be changed.

@CS, @Hex and @Closey: thanks for your input.

@All: Jeroen is working now on something completely different (for Apolyton) which is pretty huge and important, after that, and when he has time, he'll start working on the style.

Sounds good, thanks mate Looking forward to it!

[Wiglaf]

My helpful and thought provoking posts keep disappearing. I can only assume this is an honest mistake. Plomp, for the last time, I wanted black text on white background, not black text on a black background.

[JohnApples]

The quote boxes are really readable, wouldn't it be cool if there was a theme based around those quote boxes? Like using a similar colour set-up for the text and background.

[Wiglaf]

This theme would be ideal if it were Halloween if only because we are all sloshed on Halloween and orange is the ****, but only on Halloween.

[Dinner]

It's about delivering what users want. Just let users design some formats and then make them available in the user CP. That way everyone can pick the style they want and there will be less whining.

[MikeH]

The standard vBulletin theme is basically Black on White, you could just switch that back on and add it as an alternative until there's time to develop a new style. After all people will only see that style if they log in/register and change their preferences.

That would relieve pressure on getting a new style in quickly.

[DaShi]

Don't listen to MikeH and Asher! Make the style black text on black background as Wiglaf suggested. If they don't like it, they can just post somewhere else. Adding additional options just means that some people (perhaps even most) will be using a style you don't like!!! You own personal sense of style is at risk here. Don't let them take that away from you. Also,start banning people who disagree with you.

[fetustoast]

......looking like something thrown in the garbage a month ago.

[fetustoast]

@All: Jeroen is working now on something completely different (for Apolyton) which is pretty huge and important, after that, and when he has time, he'll start working on the style.

Huge and important!

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!