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  • Where is CtP3?

    Why hasn't someone cashed in on it yet?

  • #2
    Perhaps my opinion is not shared by the others, but I ask myself why they should develop a third chapter of the game, when the second one, thanks to Apolyton and the wide opportunity to customize it, is almost perfect? :-D I miss the space-layer but I wouldn't add anything more. The CTP2 graphic is satisfying enough to me, being myself more interested to the playablity of the game rather than to its appearance.
    The destination doesn't matter. What's important is the journey.

    Comment


    • #3
      CtP was very innovative for it's time. I would imagine that if someone did create a version 3, they could push the envelope again, as the series once did. There are many areas that could be improved or expanded upon, IMO.

      I know that Activision is open to working with independent game studios. They even list on their website that any such studio had better have a playable demo before contacting them about publishing a game. So that got me thinking, why not get a group of people together and do that. We could make a playable demo, contact Activision and say, "Look at this demo game. We'd like to call it CtP3 and take advantage of the existing fanbase, or we can just slap another name on it and publish it that way - your choice."

      I was wondering if anyone here had ever thought of giving that a try? It's been a long time since I've done any programming, but I'd be willing to dust off the old skills to be a part of that group.

      Comment


      • #4
        Games made by people that play it are always the best. You can notice it anytime a modding community gathers: they make a great game out of a good game. The problem is that when such big projects are on the way you have to face key-people that give up when they are most needed, others that make a sloppy work and it took ages before having the sloppy results... more than that, a lucrative project would be even more complicated because the greed of some will spoil the whole team.
        Modifying a existing game is one thing, creating a brand new one is totally different.
        The destination doesn't matter. What's important is the journey.

        Comment


        • #5
          I've done both (modding and creating). It's much more work creating games from scratch, obviously, though it is also much more rewarding since you have total creative control over the end product. Working over the internet doing hobby game development does also have its own special issues as you say - people leaving is probably the biggest, based on my past experiences. That's what this would be is a hobby development project, at least until we'd reach the demo stage and approach Activision. If they financed it, then it would be different.

          My thinking is though, that if CtP had made any real money, Activision would have already published a 3, and probably 4 by now as well. Therefore they would probably decline to finance the project, seeing it as a losing investment, given the history of the series. They won't even talk to developers without a proven track record unless they have a playable demo though, so the only way to find out for sure would be to actually go through with it.

          Comment


          • #6
            I believe that with a experienced project-leader and a good team, it can be done. The worst thing that might happen is that the game will remain unfinished or will have to be released for free. Too bad that my programming skills are very limited (a very little knowledge of C) or I would have offered my help :-).
            My best wishes to you, if you decide to start such project.
            The destination doesn't matter. What's important is the journey.

            Comment


            • #7
              Ok, so let's say there was to be such a project. Since step one would be to write a design document, how about a little design-brainstorming? What could be done to warrant a Ctp3?
              The obvious things that come to mind are:
              -3d graphics (pretty much mandatory for modern games)
              -Spherical world of some sort (buckeyball seems most likely as we wouldn't want to lose tiles)
              -Improved Diplomacy (bargain table and multi-party diplomacy)
              -Civilization uniqueness (building, unit, wonder)
              -Organic city growth (grow borders 1 tile at a time rather than in giant rings)
              -Support everything (nothing is free, support costs for units/cities/tile improvements/buildings)
              -Dynamic civ creation (allow rebellions/diplomatic treaties/etc. to create new civs during game play)
              -Change barbarians to work like civ4's animals. They are merely meant to harass a civilization, not take it over - that's what other civs are for. But add barbarian bases and unique tribe names like in civ3, to give players a way to reduce local barbarian nuisances

              The radical things that come to mind:
              -New victory system (Your goal is not to last to the end of the game with your starting civ, but to make the civ you're playing last as long as possible. When it falls, you choose to continue on as one of it's successor civs or a civ it had contact with. You win the game by scoring the most points with all the civs you've played through history. This allows the introduction of "rise and fall" without ruining the fun - it's an integral part of the gameplay. Also introduce disease/disasters/stability to aid in the "fall" part of that equation.)
              -No city radius (instead each new city will gradually add more tiles to the empire - approximately equal to what the previous radius would have added - 21 tiles?)
              -New tile system (Food/Production/Commerce now have subcategories. Food might contain "Fruits & Vegetables/Dairy/Beef/Poultry, etc.". Special goods are gone, due to there being "goods" on every tile now. You shouldn't have to deal with the subcategories if you don't want, but it opens up micro-management opportunities for those that like that sort of thing.)
              -New army system (Much like above, only have "armies" as units the player moves on the map. When going into a battle situation though, separate the army into it's separate elements for those that want to micromanage the battles, and have an auto calculate for those that don't.)
              -Do away with individual buildings and move to building categories (Housing/Financial/Education/etc.), which give bonuses as you build higher levels of them - they are always being continuously built thus reducing micromanagement (though you can still go in an prioritize if you like to micromanage that).
              -As above, but also move production out of cities and under the domestic adviser.
              -Remove unit building from cities and place it under the military adviser
              -As above, but remove wonders and place under the domestic adviser
              -Add a layer of laws (a bit like sim-city's ordinances) so that a player can choose to be a democracy or a theocracy and then, if he chooses, go in and fine tune which laws are in effect in his empire, allowing two democracies to be slightly different
              -Phased Movement (each player moves each unit one movement point, then again and again, until all units have moved all of their movement points. Each of these movment turns is a Phase, once all phases are completed, the turn may be ended whenever ready, as normal)

              That's all I've got at the moment. I obviously compiled some of these from the Civilization series, but some also come from scouring the civ forums for ideas, a few are original.

              Comment


              • #8
                Nice ideas. Here are my hints.

                -As you wrote, you could introduce a layer of laws, but you could go further. Do you know NationStates? It's a internet site created by a novelist to promote his book; you can create a nation and influence its development and its politics by accepting or rejecting proposals of law. Give a look and play it for few days to get an idea of what is it.
                -The government could be decided by the evaluation of the player's style; for instance, if you build a lot of prisons, spies and enact many suppressive laws you are bond to be a dictatorship (fascism, communism, tyranny, nazism...). Also giving the possibility to influence AI governments could be a nice thing to implement; I wouldn't allow alliances between opposite forms of government (nazism\democracy, communism\corporate capitalism...)
                -New obiectives and random in-game-missions: turn the world into your own political alignment - conquer a specific region (like in Risk) - obtain monopoly of a certain resource - kill the head of a enemy state - subvert another government...
                -Implement religion as it has been done through a mod in CTP2. (sorry I don't remember the modder's name)
                -Building and expansion could be strictly related: for instance, you can found the city center in a cell, in a nearest one, perhaps connected by a road, you can create the economic district and level-up it by starting from the marketplate to enhanced forms. You will have a Industrial district, a downtown, a residential one... you can build them like a cell improvement, enabling it through the research (could be a nice idea to create a CTP2 mod as well on this line). This would avoid the "big-circle" expansion. Any cell, dependingly by its level, will increment a certain aspect of the city.
                The city wouldn't be managed through individual buildings, but by assigning a percentage of improvement per-turn for every district (i.e. 25% industrial, 45% residential, 20% commercial, 10% leisure). Through international agreements you can influence foreign immigration, high-skilled low-cost workers... having expats in your cities is an advantage unless you don't go at war against their home-country; sending yours could be a strategy to estabilish a long-standing peace with a nation, for instance, or could be a long-term plan for a gradual take-over.
                -I would keep the "mandatory" resources logic. i.e. If you want to build motorized infantry, you have to possess or trade a source of oil.

                That's it, for now. :-)
                The destination doesn't matter. What's important is the journey.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Ghaladh View Post
                  -As you wrote, you could introduce a layer of laws, but you could go further. Do you know NationStates? It's a internet site created by a novelist to promote his book; you can create a nation and influence its development and its politics by accepting or rejecting proposals of law. Give a look and play it for few days to get an idea of what is it.
                  I played Nation states a long time ago. It was ok, I don't recall any voting process for laws though. Is that new? Last knew you simply did whatever you wanted as you were basically a dictator of your own lands, though "unrealistic" behavior could be overwritten by mods.

                  Originally posted by Ghaladh View Post
                  -The government could be decided by the evaluation of the player's style; for instance, if you build a lot of prisons, spies and enact many suppressive laws you are bond to be a dictatorship (fascism, communism, tyranny, nazism...). Also giving the possibility to influence AI governments could be a nice thing to implement; I wouldn't allow alliances between opposite forms of government (nazism\democracy, communism\corporate capitalism...)
                  That's something worth considering. If you do certain things (such as build lots of prisons) you get certain laws auto-enacted, thus influencing your government style (fascism, communism, etc.). I like that. I also like the ability to influence other civ's governments, maybe via a spy action or via a diplomacy action...
                  I wouldn't automatically dismiss the possibility of an alliance between opposite forms, but would like to see relation penalties for sure, which would indirectly influence such things.

                  Originally posted by Ghaladh View Post
                  -New obiectives and random in-game-missions: turn the world into your own political alignment - conquer a specific region (like in Risk) - obtain monopoly of a certain resource - kill the head of a enemy state - subvert another government...
                  Ok, why would you be given such a "quest" and why would you bother following through with it? Is it meant to be like Civ4's random events (in BtS)?

                  Originally posted by Ghaladh View Post
                  -Implement religion as it has been done through a mod in CTP2. (sorry I don't remember the modder's name)
                  I didn't know religion ever made it into CtP - can you look up the mod name and let me know so I can check it out?

                  Originally posted by Ghaladh View Post
                  -Building and expansion could be strictly related: for instance, you can found the city center in a cell, in a nearest one, perhaps connected by a road, you can create the economic district and level-up it by starting from the marketplate to enhanced forms. You will have a Industrial district, a downtown, a residential one... you can build them like a cell improvement, enabling it through the research (could be a nice idea to create a CTP2 mod as well on this line). This would avoid the "big-circle" expansion. Any cell, dependingly by its level, will increment a certain aspect of the city.
                  The city wouldn't be managed through individual buildings, but by assigning a percentage of improvement per-turn for every district (i.e. 25% industrial, 45% residential, 20% commercial, 10% leisure). Through international agreements you can influence foreign immigration, high-skilled low-cost workers... having expats in your cities is an advantage unless you don't go at war against their home-country; sending yours could be a strategy to estabilish a long-standing peace with a nation, for instance, or could be a long-term plan for a gradual take-over.
                  That's put somewhat differently than anything I've run across so far. However, with that said, I dislike the idea of placing "city sprawl" type improvements, and this sound like it could fit in that category. Search for city-sprawl here or at civfanatics and see if what you're thinking goes along with those theories which have been discussed many times before. To me, it sounds like it does, but I could be wrong, which is why I'm not saying I dislike it outright. Please elaborate after searching "city sprawl".

                  Originally posted by Ghaladh View Post
                  -I would keep the "mandatory" resources logic. i.e. If you want to build motorized infantry, you have to possess or trade a source of oil.
                  Yes, that's on the upcoming list already.

                  By the way, I'm compiling a list of ideas, both from here and civfanatics, which are either extremely popular, extremely intriguing for consideration, or are obvious inclusions for CtP3, or I simply like outright and want to explore further. That means that not all ideas I'm listing are compatible, not all I fully support for inclusion, and some I simply want to consider further before making a decision on. Any idea I don't think is worthy of consideration, I'm automatically leaving off the list. I'll update another list a few seconds after this post.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    1.Add Religions with a "build-your-own" system. We don't give the religions bonuses or penalties, we let the players choose their own bonuses and penalties. Presets can be chosen (these are preset bonus/penalty packages and are not tied to any one religion, any religion can use any package).
                    2.Do away with difficulty levels as they exist now with their hidden bonuses and penalties and use a "set-your-own" handicap system instead. Preset levels can be used if desired. Handicaps might be to give extra units, production, commerce, food to some civs and less production, commerce, and food to the human player for example. Lots of options can be here: Later start dates, AI attitude penalties, etc.
                    3.Canals. About time already.
                    4.Different tile improvements to use on the land (farm, winery, monastary, fort, airbase, naval yard, etc.)
                    5.Resources/Goods system, where goods are produced from resources
                    6.Tile attrition (bad terrain damages units)
                    7.True movement (2 mp cost tile will take a 1mp unit 2 turns to cross)
                    8.Range of Operation (units have a limited range, technologies extend these)
                    9.Map trades (city-level, empire-level, world-level)
                    10.All civilizations are barbarians to each other until a diplomat is sent to the other civ. Or all civs are in a state of war until then. Of course, diplomats are immune to attack so they can achieve the embassy!
                    11.Early exploration is curtailed by making the clearing of tiles take a number of turns based on map size – say two turns on a standard map. The unit walks into the blackness, then spends 2 turns exploring and maping, during which time he is invisible to other players. When he is done with this task, he's available to move again, and has cleared away some blackness, as normal.
                    12.Provinces – lots of people like the idea, but what good would they do?
                    13.Formalized borders treaty, which sets your border with a neighbor.
                    14.Map feature naming (a continent, ocean, etc.)
                    15.Do away with tile improvements altogether, and simply have technology improve the output of tiles over time. (For example, base grassland food is 20, get tech A and it's +5, tech B gives another +5, then tech C gives a +10, etc.) This would certainly help reduce micromanagement and reduce clutter on the map.
                    16.Diplomatic States (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpo...33&postcount=6)
                    17.Coast/Sea/Ocean water tiles. Coast fits alongside land tiles. Sea fits alongside coast tiles and with a small chance of existing 2-tiles away as well. Any Sea "rings" that form will be filled with sea (for example, due to the constriction at the Straits of Gibralter, the entire Mediterranian would be filled with sea tiles, other than the coastal tiles adjacent to land.
                    18.Quantified Resourse system (all resources have a quantity attached to it and all units require a quantity of certain resources to build and maintain. Buildings/tile improvments too.)
                    19.Investment Treaty (signing this with another civ means you give them money and they get free buildings – not units or wonders – out of the deal. For example, let's say you give them 1000 gold investment, every building they build in their cities after this is paid for out of this investment money, then their own production is used once the money is gone. The investor might make money off of this deal, in the same example, it will be paid back over 20 turns, so 50gpt, plus or minus 1-20%, with a slight weighting towards the positive.)
                    20.Alternate unit movement idea – very intriguing (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=324751)
                    21.Resources on every tile (If the tile is in the city's radius, you have access to the resource – also requires resource quantities)
                    22.Wimsey's economic model – might be worth a detailed look one day (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=303065)
                    23.Everything you produce (units/buildings/wonders/tile improvements, etc.) produce culture. Culture then gives you diplomatic and economic bonuses rather than what "culture" does in the civ series. (maybe even a small military bonus to add incentive to it's investment?)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by epicivfreak View Post
                      I played Nation states a long time ago. It was ok, I don't recall any voting process for laws though. Is that new? Last knew you simply did whatever you wanted as you were basically a dictator of your own lands, though "unrealistic" behavior could be overwritten by mods.[...]
                      Daily you have to resolve a "issue" by choosing to approve one of the available bills. This influences your government. The same logic could be applied to a strategic game, I think.

                      Originally posted by epicivfreak View Post
                      [...]I wouldn't automatically dismiss the possibility of an alliance between opposite forms, but would like to see relation penalties for sure, which would indirectly influence such things.[...]
                      I completely agree on that.

                      Originally posted by epicivfreak View Post
                      [...]Ok, why would you be given such a "quest" and why would you bother following through with it? Is it meant to be like Civ4's random events (in BtS)?[...]
                      Vox populi, vox rex :-). Many quests will be suggested by particular groups of interest, other directly by the population. Making them happy by satisfying their requests will give advantages.

                      For example the player might receive a message like that:
                      "The Stonecutters Guild's spokesman point a finger on the map.
                      - The enemy city (city_name) possesses wealthy marble deposits. It would be a nice idea to take over the city. Just think of the beautiful monuments we could be able to do with such high-quality marble!-
                      Advantages: by conquering (city_name) your Stonecutters Guild will carve beautiful statues and columns. This will raise the population's happines level and will improve the economy (+1 happiness, +1 arts, +5 gold per turn, +3 Capitalistic tendency, +2 Aggressive diplomatic stance).
                      If you refuse: +2 Anti-Capitalistic tendency, -2 Aggressive diplomatic Stance."

                      Originally posted by epicivfreak View Post
                      [...]I didn't know religion ever made it into CtP - can you look up the mod name and let me know so I can check it out?[...]
                      Religion Mod for SAP - by Pedrunn


                      Originally posted by epicivfreak View Post
                      [...]That's put somewhat differently than anything I've run across so far. However, with that said, I dislike the idea of placing "city sprawl" type improvements, and this sound like it could fit in that category. Search for city-sprawl here or at civfanatics and see if what you're thinking goes along with those theories which have been discussed many times before. To me, it sounds like it does, but I could be wrong, which is why I'm not saying I dislike it outright. Please elaborate after searching "city sprawl".[...]
                      It would be more like the "Rise of Nations" buildings, but rather than representing a single building, it will be considered as a empty district. By following a "Sim-City logic", in order to increase the population, you have to build a residential area, a commercial one and a industrial section, adding also leisure places, parks, military compounds, defensive facilities, farms, natural reserves...
                      After you place them, they will continues to grow and to improve along with the scientific and economic enhancements. Once they are built, you don't have to manage them one by one; your duty will be to procure enough resources to build the foundations and to maintain them healthy and wealthy.
                      If in your city you will not be able to provide enough food or job places, the city will start losing population, turning slowly into a slum, falling perhaps under the scourge of the organized crime (which is not necessarily a bad thing if you have a corrupt government).

                      Said that, I had another idea: criminality in those games had always been a stupid numeric statistic to keep under control. What if after the discovery of "organized crime" or "Labor Unions" the player be able to build special units like Gangster or Mafia-Boss and to use them to control the city? For instance, those units controlled by the corrupt government will grant the advantage to pay for the buildings' maintenance costs though reducing greatly the income which should come from the city into the government's funds. People will be less prone to public disorders, angry workers will never raid the streets during violent strikes and so on... Perhaps there will be a risk that the organized crime will infect a nearby city and you will end up to invests money and energy to regain control over it... :-)

                      EDIT: How sad, I have just described the situation in Italy! XD lol
                      The destination doesn't matter. What's important is the journey.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Ghaladh View Post
                        Vox populi, vox rex :-). Many quests will be suggested by particular groups of interest, other directly by the population. Making them happy by satisfying their requests will give advantages.

                        For example the player might receive a message like that:
                        "The Stonecutters Guild's spokesman point a finger on the map.
                        - The enemy city (city_name) possesses wealthy marble deposits. It would be a nice idea to take over the city. Just think of the beautiful monuments we could be able to do with such high-quality marble!-
                        Advantages: by conquering (city_name) your Stonecutters Guild will carve beautiful statues and columns. This will raise the population's happines level and will improve the economy (+1 happiness, +1 arts, +5 gold per turn, +3 Capitalistic tendency, +2 Aggressive diplomatic stance).
                        If you refuse: +2 Anti-Capitalistic tendency, -2 Aggressive diplomatic Stance."
                        I really like this. I'm going to include it.

                        Just FYI, I guess reading all those posts of civ ideas and suggestions over here and at Civfanatics really got my creative juices flowing. Wednesday I sat down and started writing a design document and haven't stopped much since then (that's why I haven't added anything more and probably won't at this point, I'm committed to doing this project now). It's only 13 pages long at the moment, but it has most of the economy/trade system fully developed, most of the military/combat system, the technology system, Golden Ages and much more. I was surprised at how everything simply flowed out after making a few key design decisions and how quickly everything just "fell into place" - I can pretty much envision the game-play already, and I semi-modestly believe it's awesome.

                        One of the things I still have to do is religion (thus I'll look into that mod before starting on that). I also need to tackle the government/law system, but I've got a pretty good idea of how I want to do that. I need to do diplomacy, but again I've got pretty good ideas of what to do there. And then there are the "Bad" things, which I've intentionally left for last as I think those will be the most difficult things to make fun to play - such as plagues, disasters, civil war, etc.

                        For the record, here are the very basic design decisions I made that kicked off the whole process (just copied it from the design doc):
                        1.The game map will be a buckeyball-type sphere, or more properly an Archimedian Truncated Icosohedron (hereafter referred to as a buckeyball) made up of individual tiles. The presence of pentagons will not affect anything other than the number of adjacent tiles that a unit may move to from the pentagon.
                        2.The need for a buckeyball map means that the game will be using 3d graphics. Due to this fact, we need to minimize the need for 3d models throughout the game to lessen the need for 3d modelers and animators – one of the hardest things to come by in hobby game development in my past experience.
                        3.We always round off by the standard method (.4 or less round down, .5 or more round up) when designing game mechanics - it just makes sense.
                        4.Minimize micromanagement as much as possible. This will keep the players focused on big decisions and I believe make it possible to make a great AI much easier.

                        By the way, do you have any skills that would help in developing a game, and would you be interested in doing so once I'm ready to take on more people?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          All interesting and ambitious ideas, but who is going to put this all together...

                          (not me, I'm happy with what I have done in CTP2 Cradle and CTP2 LOTR)
                          Yes, let's be optimistic until we have reason to be otherwise...No, let's be pessimistic until we are forced to do otherwise...Maybe, let's be balanced until we are convinced to do otherwise. -- DrSpike, Skanky Burns, Shogun Gunner
                          ...aisdhieort...dticcok...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Well, I see that from the talking we are now speaking about a project... :-) I am a very creative person, but I fear that my IT skills are quite useless in the development of a video-game. I will give my contribution with my ideas however :-).

                            Speaking about religion, could be enough to implement the already existing religions of the real world, although would be nice to give to the player the opportunity to design a custom religion, although I fear it would be quite hard to decide the eventual modalities.
                            Perhaps, if the game goes further to the modern era, it will be funny to invent new futuristic religions.
                            The destination doesn't matter. What's important is the journey.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by hexagonian View Post
                              All interesting and ambitious ideas, but who is going to put this all together...

                              (not me, I'm happy with what I have done in CTP2 Cradle and CTP2 LOTR)
                              You can really be proud of what you did. I am playing CTP2 with your mod in those last days and I am really enjoying it! :-)
                              The destination doesn't matter. What's important is the journey.

                              Comment

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