Treaty of Tripoli

David Floyd · May 12, 2010, 16:57

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli

That's the complete text of the Treaty of Tripoli. I won't bother to rehash it here, but this is the relevant passage for discussion:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Emphasis on the bolded section. The United States Senate UNANIMOUSLY ratified this Treaty, including Article 11, which was read aloud on the floor of the Senate. And by the way, this was in 1797.

Anyone still think the US is a "Christian nation"?

DRoseDARs · May 12, 2010, 17:01

"Is the US A Christian Nation?"
No. Next question. What prompted this for the umpteenth time?

David Floyd · May 12, 2010, 17:03

Perhaps the fact that the political/religious Right in the US by and large thinks that the US is a Christian nation and has been since it's inception.

DRoseDARs · May 12, 2010, 17:07

Personally, I'd rather slam my dick in a car door than have this debate. Thank God we have a treaty ending the debate succinctly for us.

David Floyd · May 12, 2010, 17:10

That was sort of my point. Most people aren't aware of the Treaty of Tripoli. I'm also genuinely interested in BK's take on it.

N35t0r · May 12, 2010, 18:11

You mean you doubt he'll either ignore it or argue that it isn't valid because jesus was born before the treaty?

SlowwHand · May 12, 2010, 18:16

The USA doesn't have a state authorized religion. That doesn't mean it stands for atheism, but it stands for choice.
David, you should know it without starting a thread about it, again.

David Floyd · May 12, 2010, 18:17

Sloww, you know as well as I do that "The US is founded on Christianity" is a ****ing buzz word phrase for the Religious Right, which numbers in the millions in this country.

Whoha · May 12, 2010, 18:19

They violated that treaty, so clearly we had to kick their heathen asses.

SlowwHand · May 12, 2010, 18:20

Then they're stupid,. Are you saying you want to join the ranks?

As your dad would ask, if they jump off a cliff, will you want to join in and jump too?

David Floyd · May 12, 2010, 18:23

I agree they're stupid. Jesus Christ, dude. What do you care that I posted the thread? If no one cares, on one will respond. I think it's a legit point that most people don't know, and furthermore, I'd hazard a guess that you'd never even heard of Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli prior to opening this thread.

gribbler · May 12, 2010, 18:52

Thanks for sharing. Although people who call the US a "Christian nation" mostly seem to believe whatever they want so it probably won't have much effect.

SlowwHand · May 12, 2010, 19:03

JUDAS PRIEST! I'm sorry, David. I wasn't intending to get you riled so much. Go ahead.

DRoseDARs · May 12, 2010, 20:03

Originally Posted by gribbler

Thanks for sharing. Although people who call the US a "Christian nation" mostly seem to believe whatever they want so it probably won't have much effect.

Except that quite a few of them are elected officials, found at all levels of government, as well as appointed to many agencies or otherwise working for them. Then there are those working in the private sector for major companies whose impact on the economy can be felt as a major shudder should something go wrong with their finances. We aren't just talking about Fred Phelps and a few other "bad apples" here.

Berzerker · May 12, 2010, 20:56

old news

Dinner · May 12, 2010, 21:59

Just yesterday Fox News and Sarah Palin were claiming America was founded as a Christian nation and that the founders supposedly always planned on it being a Christian nation.

David Floyd · May 12, 2010, 22:07

Which explains why the only thing that should ever come out of Sarah Palin's mouth is my penis. Although quite frankly, as much as I want to hit that, it wouldn't stay out for long.

Hauldren Collider · May 12, 2010, 22:10

Originally Posted by Oerdin

Just yesterday Fox News and Sarah Palin were claiming America was founded as a Christian nation and that the founders supposedly always planned on it being a Christian nation.

I don't see how this is any worse than Obama claiming his policies will reduce the deficit or that he hasn't raised taxes. This is pandering, whereas Obama is just flat-out lying. At least when Republicans claim this is a Christian nation, it doesn't actually change any public policy. Pick your bullshit: Harmful or harmless.

gribbler · May 12, 2010, 22:23

Originally Posted by Hauldren Collider

I don't see how this is any worse than Obama claiming his policies will reduce the deficit or that he hasn't raised taxes. This is pandering, whereas Obama is just flat-out lying. At least when Republicans claim this is a Christian nation, it doesn't actually change any public policy. Pick your bullshit: Harmful or harmless.

Umm, if they convinced people that America is and was meant to be a Christian nation it would build support for many of their idiotic stances on social issues.

Hauldren Collider · May 12, 2010, 22:31

Originally Posted by gribbler

Umm, if they convinced people that America is and was meant to be a Christian nation it would build support for many of their idiotic stances on social issues.

They're not trying to build support, just pandering to their base. The effort is not to convince new people of this.

And presidents don't really dictate a lot of social policy anyway apart from abortion, which is NOT restricted to the religious right. Besides, who the **** goes bankrupt because the president thinks the country is christian? Versus the democrat's complete lack of understanding of good fiscal policy, somebody who thinks "under god" should be in the pledge seems like a rather light trade-off.

I don't know if I've mentioned this before but I am personally NOT religious.

DaShi · May 12, 2010, 22:34

I don't see how it is any worse than Hu Jintao claiming China is a country of laws. Obama is trying to get things happening while Hu is preventing progress.

Solomwi · May 12, 2010, 22:36

Anybody who thinks we should have a pledge of allegiance in the first place is a soft-headed tit and a danger to us all.

Hauldren Collider · May 12, 2010, 22:36

Originally Posted by DaShi

I don't see how it is any worse than Hu Jintao claiming China is a country of laws. Obama is trying to get things happening while Hu is preventing progress.

I'm sorry is this supposed to be an analogy because I don't see how you can make any logical comparison between Hu Jintao and somebody who works for Fox News.

gribbler · May 12, 2010, 22:37

Originally Posted by Hauldren Collider

They're not trying to build support, just pandering to their base. The effort is not to convince new people of this.

And presidents don't really dictate a lot of social policy anyway apart from abortion, which is NOT restricted to the religious right. Besides, who the **** goes bankrupt because the president thinks the country is christian? Versus the democrat's complete lack of understanding of good fiscal policy, somebody who thinks "under god" should be in the pledge seems like a rather light trade-off.

I don't know if I've mentioned this before but I am personally NOT religious.

Given that "America is a Christian nation" is basically the opposite of separation of church and state, I'd say it interferes with convincing people that the government should treat gay people equally and that they shouldn't support a ban on abortion for religious reasons. When right wing politicians claim the founding fathers wanted America to be a "Chistian nation" they spread lies and make people more ignorant.

Hauldren Collider · May 12, 2010, 22:41

Originally Posted by gribbler

Given that "America is a Christian nation" is basically the opposite of separation of church and state, I'd say it interferes with convincing people that the government should treat gay people equally and that they shouldn't support a ban on abortion for religious reasons. When right wing politicians claim the founding father wanted America to be a "Chistian nation" they spread lies and make people more ignorant.

As I've said, I don't think the lies are spreading so much as if you're a politician pandering to the bible belt, what the hell else are you going to say? I agree that it goes against church and state but a politician claiming this to be a christian nation still isn't going to be able to do jack **** and probably wouldn't even try to do jack **** to reduce religious freedom in this country. Besides, my point is more that sending the country over a financial cliff is a little bit of a bigger deal than asserting the country is Christian (in my opinion). I understand that this is a matter of personal priorities--some people might see the latter as more important. I think the economy comes first.

DaShi · May 12, 2010, 22:59

Originally Posted by Hauldren Collider

I'm sorry is this supposed to be an analogy because I don't see how you can make any logical comparison between Hu Jintao and somebody who works for Fox News.

Imran Siddiqui · May 13, 2010, 00:22

I'm with Sloww... in that we should swear to Judas Priest from now on

Solomwi · May 13, 2010, 00:24

And all that backmasking effort finally pays off...

Dinner · May 13, 2010, 01:05

BTW O'Reilly, as usual, is completely wrong about the ten commandments being inscribed on the walls of the Supreme Court. Snopes did a great piece on this:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/capital.asp

SlowwHand · May 13, 2010, 01:17

Separation of Church and State doesn't mean that the two can't mix. It means no government endorsed religion. It doesn't mean an advocacy against religion.