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Apparently the US government is trying everything in their power to stop the video from getting out, but it's live on wikileaks now. It shows 2 Reuters employees being killed, many others being killed, several children being seriously wounded in Afghanistan.
The video speaks for itself, but is very disturbing. You may want to just take people's word for it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8603938.stm
WikiLeaks posts video of 'US military killings' in Iraq
WikiLeaks has posted a video on its website which it claims shows the killing of civilians by the US military in Baghdad in 2007.
The website's organisers say they were given the footage, which they say comes from cameras on US Apache helicopters.
They say they decrypted it, but would not reveal who gave it to them.
The WikiLeaks site campaigns for freedom of information and posts leaked documents online. So far there has been no official Pentagon response.
High-quality video
The video, released on Monday, is of high quality and appears to be authentic, the BBC's Adam Brookes in Washington says.
It is accompanied by a recording of the pilots' radio transmissions and those of US troops on the ground.
The video shows a street in Baghdad and a group of about eight people, whom the helicopter pilots identify as armed insurgents.
The transmissions says of one of the individuals: "He's got an RPG [rocket-propelled grenade]. I'm going to fire."
After a voice on the transmission urges the pilot to "light 'em all up", the individuals on the street are shot by the gunship's cannon.
A few minutes later a van drives to the scene, and its occupants appear to start picking up a wounded person.
It, too, is fired upon. Altogether, around 12 people die.
'Hostile force'
The transmission continues: "Looks like we've got some slight movement from the van that was engaged. Looks like a kid."
US soldiers on the ground establish there are two child casualties and agree to take them to a hospital, according to the transmission.
"Well it's their fault for bringing their kids into a battle," says a voice.
Two journalists working for Reuters were killed on the day the incident took place in July 2007.
A spokeswoman for the news agency said they were not sure if the individuals in the footage included those two Reuters journalists.
WikiLeaks has published a statement from Reuters news editor-in-chief David Schlesinger saying that the video was "graphic evidence of the dangers involved in war journalism and the tragedies that can result".
At the time, the US military said the helicopters were engaged in combat operations against a hostile force.
WikiLeaks said the video demonstrated that civilians had died in the incident, and that the US military's rules of engagement were flawed.
The website's organisers complained recently of coming under surveillance by the US government, and of harassment by other governments, ostensibly for their role in posting leaked documents on sensitive subjects.
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
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I didn't watch but seemed pretty bad based on comments
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I'm shocked to learn that civilians get killed in guerrilla conflicts.
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The video speaks for itself, but is very disturbing. You may want to just take people's word for it.
No, because you're misrepresenting it. Ed Morrissey, my hero:
In the video, starting at the 3:50 mark, one member of this group starts preparing what clearly looks like an RPG launcher, as well as some individuals with AK-47s. The launcher then reappears at the 4:06 mark as the man wielding it sets up a shot for down the street. In 2007 Baghdad, this would be a clear threat to US and Iraqi Army ground forces; in fact, it’s difficult to imagine any other purpose for an RPG launcher at that time and place. That’s exactly the kind of threat that US airborne forces were tasked to detect and destroy, which is why the gunships targeted and shot all of the members of the group.
Another accusation is that US forces fired on and killed rescue workers attempting to carry one of the journalists out of the area. However, the video clearly shows that the vehicle in question bore no markings of a rescue vehicle at all, and the men who ran out of the van to grab the wounded man wore no uniforms identifying themselves as such. Under any rules of engagement, and especially in a terrorist hot zone like Baghdad in 2007, that vehicle would properly be seen as support for the terrorists that had just been engaged and a legitimate target for US forces. While they didn’t grab weapons before getting shot, the truth is that the gunships didn’t give them the chance to try, either — which is exactly what they’re trained to do. They don’t need to wait until someone gets hold of the RPG launcher and fires it at the gunship or at the reinforcements that had already begun to approach the scene. The gunships acted to protect the approaching patrol, which is again the very reason we had them in the air over Baghdad.
War correspondents take huge risks to bring news of a war to readers far away. What this shows is just how risky it is to embed with terrorists, especially when their enemy controls the air. War is not the same thing as law enforcement; the US forces had no responsibility for identifying each member of the group and determining their mens rea. Legitimate rescue operations would have included markings on the vehicle and on uniforms to let hostile forces know to hold fire, and in the absence of that, the hostile forces have every reason to consider the second support group as a legitimate target as well. It’s heartbreaking for the families of these journalists, but this isn’t “collateral murder” — it’s war.
I'm shocked to learn that our army occasionally screws up.
If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
:(){ :|:& };:
The "RPG launcher" that, in fact, turned out to be a Reuters camera?Originally Posted by Wiglaf
No, because you're misrepresenting it. Ed Morrissey, my hero:
Or is that a different RPG launcher?
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
I can identify that as a camera but I'm also not hopped up on adrenaline and idiocy.
"I hope I get to punch you in the face one day" - MRT144, Imran Siddiqui
'I'm fairly certain that a ban on me punching you in the face is not a "right" worth respecting." - loinburger
When you are talking about people's lives, you just need to be a bit more careful. Nothing in that video posed an immediate threat to American soldiers. They thought they saw RPGs and AK-47s, and apparently that's all that's needed to issue a death sentence for everyone in the area.
Even the van which came up, with no threatening behaviour whatsoever, and began trying to rescue the wounded people...where the **** is there risk there?
The douche Wiggy quotes seems to think every civilian living in their own country needs to have "clearly marked" clothing and vehicles.
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
And I take issue not only with the contents of the video, but the lengths to which the US government has gone to ensure it doesn't see the light of day.
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
That video was badass.
Start it at 3:50 for the good part.
edit: It gets awesome again at the 9:00 mark.
Last edited by Drake Tungsten; April 5, 2010 at 19:41.
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That's why I said they screwed up. It happens. I didn't say it was good.When you are talking about people's lives, you just need to be a bit more careful. Nothing in that video posed an immediate threat to American soldiers. They thought they saw RPGs and AK-47s, and apparently that's all that's needed to issue a death sentence for everyone in the area.
Even the van which came up, with no threatening behaviour whatsoever, and began trying to rescue the wounded people...where the **** is there risk there?
The douche Wiggy quotes seems to think every civilian living in their own country needs to have "clearly marked" clothing and vehicles.
If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
:(){ :|:& };:
Also I don't really blame the military for not being overeager to publicize all of their screwups. They're all humans, what do you expect? Once you get your hands on it, though, they can't stop you from publishing it, which is the crucial bit. See pentagon papers.
If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
:(){ :|:& };:
This isn't a camera. It's an RPG. http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/US-murder_iraqi_RPG.JPGWhen you are talking about people's lives, you just need to be a bit more careful. Nothing in that video posed an immediate threat to American soldiers. They thought they saw RPGs and AK-47s, and apparently that's all that's needed to issue a death sentence for everyone in the area.
Even the van which came up, with no threatening behaviour whatsoever, and began trying to rescue the wounded people...where the **** is there risk there?
The douche Wiggy quotes seems to think every civilian living in their own country needs to have "clearly marked" clothing and vehicles.
This is an AK47. http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/US-m...iraqi_AK47.JPG
Good journalists got tangled with insurgents. The van thing was a disaster because you should wait for them and follow them in the chopper. Either they go to hospital or insurgent hideout, either way is better than just shooting.
The resolution isn't sufficient to determine any of that.
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
Wiggy, your source is a tool. I can see why you didn't link to the text on his page, because he accuses Reuters of producing propaganda for insurgents.
Here's another screencap you neglected to produce:
Isn't it funny how it's clearly a ****ing telephoto lens? From a photojournalist?
"RPG?" my ass...
Look at that RPG.
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
Here is the higher res image of the deciding moment: the second the pilot proclaimed an RPG was present and got clearance to kill everyone.
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
The men then gathered around the man from the prior still, to review the photograph he had taken:
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
You need to pull yourself together
What is swinging around at 3:44? A camera? Crap on that, it's a gun. Seriously, are you going to tell me that is a telephoto lens too?
From the second pic there, Asher, it's totally plausible that he's carrying an RPG.
If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
:(){ :|:& };:
No one holds an RPG like that.
Then after the "RPG" they saw, the crowd forms around the man to stare at the 'RPG'?
Obviously the people calling the shots here don't have a brain at all. Even IF you thought that was an RPG from that angle, by the time they circled around it is readily apparent it was no such thing.
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
The language the soldiers use sounds pretty trigger-happy, but I think their attitude is pretty understandable. Their actual actions seem reasonable - in Asher's picture and in a couple other points in the video, multiple people appear to be carrying long semi-cylindrical objects. Given the limited time and resolution the soldiers had to view it, believing they were weapons was reasonable.
There is something deeply disturbing about watching the video, though - when the soldiers open up on the group, you realize real people actually died right then. I found the feeling disquieting.
When you are talking about people's lives, you just need to be a bit more careful. Nothing in that video posed an immediate threat to American soldiers. They thought they saw RPGs and AK-47s, and apparently that's all that's needed to issue a death sentence for everyone in the area.
Dude, it's a war zone where our forces are primarily engaged against ununiformed combatants, that's a pretty logical rule of engagement.
That very well may be a gun. Is that all it takes to kill 15 people? One guy carrying an AK-47 in a country that is essentially in a state of anarchy?You need to pull yourself together
What is swinging around at 3:44? A camera? Crap on that, it's a gun. Seriously, are you going to tell me that is a telephoto lens too?
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
Asher, you can't use a still image for something like that. The soldiers in the gunship didn't have the opportunity to dissect what they were seeing leisurely.
"Shoot first, ask questions later" is not a logical rule of engagement.
You're talking about a country that's been "in a state of war for 8 years". People are simply living their lives there. This isn't your typical WW2 battlefield. You don't know who is enemy and who is friendly by looking at a couple dozen pixels from a distance.
It's completely unacceptable rules of engagement to kill someone and the dozen people who happen to be around them because you think they have an AK-47 when you're standing far out of range of any danger.
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
Shoot first ask questions later
edit: crosspost, kind of
There is a gun ban in Iraq for this reason. It is not like you are legally allowed to have an assault rifle out. If you see an assault rifle, you disassociate from that group, not show them photos and embed with their unit.
Why do people have such a bad view of KBR and other contractors and mercenaries in warzones, but not embedded journalists?
They were killed for having what appeared to be an RPG, which would pose a danger to the helicopter.
They weren't killed because an RPG would be a threat to the helicopter; I doubt they even knew the helicopter was there. They were killed because an RPG would be a threat to a Bradley that was moving toward the area.
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The Bradley was summoned to the area to clean up after the hit...
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
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