Making friends with aggressive civs.

rah · November 2, 2009, 10:34

tok is harder than the rest since he won't open borders with you at first. If you get lucky on a religion spread maybe. But that's the part I don't understand, I can get pleased with them, which doesn't stop the inevitable attack. But I don't see how you can get to friendly fast enough to stop them. But then of course when they demand iron, I never give it to them.

wodan11 · November 2, 2009, 11:07

When you start the game you're a soccer ball on top of a hill. Once the ball starts rolling in one direction it's going to keep going that way barring herculean efforts.

So, whatever you do early is going to nudge the ball in one direction or the other. Something as simple as acceding to first demand, or a voluntary gift of a tech to get him to cease trading to a neighbor on the other side, will do the trick.

One of my favorite tactics is to gift Fishing to a landlocked AI.

They value it the same.

rah · November 2, 2009, 11:15

Tougher with tech trading off (my norm) so you have to wait to gift him a resource that you have multiples of. (excluding military resources of course)

Early in the game this is unlikely. But I like the fishing move.

wodan11 · November 2, 2009, 12:22

I usually play brokering off but trading on.

Also, I might dispute your "have to" assumption. Is it worth giving Monty your only rice for 10 turns if that means he's likely to jagrush somebody else? Absolutely!

And that's true whether you are peaceful, thinking of fighting someone else, or thinking of fighting Monty himself (wait till maybe 10-15 turns after he DOW's them and has plenty of time to get his jags in their territory, and then the world is your oyster). All for 1 rice for 10 turns? Where do I sign up?

rah · November 2, 2009, 13:38

Actually Monty is my preferred pyscho. I like him next to me because he's so predictable. As soon as he hooks his iron, here he comes. A few axes and a single spearmen will devistate his first rush since he never waits for cats. He'll lose all his jags against the first city and then you can march in and relieve him of all his territory. And since it happens early it doesn't matter that much that he didn't build anything since you'll have plenty of time to build the infrastructure.

Ming · November 4, 2009, 10:39

Yep... was playing a game last night with Monty as my neighbor... and he was true to form. We were different religions, so I knew he was coming. His first stack was semi-impressive, but no cats yet. Usually, I don't let people directly attack my cities (the best defense is a strong offense), but in this case, they walked right up to the city, they didn't pillage, and then destroyed themselves attacking the city. 12 turns later I had his capital. After that, it was a simple mop up. And yes, his capital had very little infrastructure and no wonders. But it was a holy city with shrine and had two generals attached

rah · November 4, 2009, 10:43

Yeah, I always note which civs pop the early religions and my mouth starts to water when I see the completed shrine notifications and they're my close neighbor.

Hauptman · November 7, 2009, 05:30

Tokagawa is actually a great friend to have if you can meet 2 requirements. First is share a religion. That one is of course game dependant, but no where near as important, as he really doesnt care much either way.

The real trick to making Toke like you is... join him in 1 single war that he asks you for. Usually, when i see him next to me and he asks for a dow. i accept. even if it's against a "friendly" civ. Well, especially if they are friendly. Most of them will forgive a dow or 2, and remain pleased. Tok then no longer sees you as one of them, grants you open borders, and since he NEVER has open borders with non allies, he will then not DOW you even though he loves mercantilism and has no use for trade routes.

Then once the gunpowder age hits, his tech rate falters (mercantilism) and he falls behind, see's you as his only friend and asks for protection (vassal). Every game I've played to him, he's asked. and one game where I didnt.

Monty, well... I've had an OOC game where i was on an island with him, and figured I had to give that a shot. Joined him in every war, gave him all but the most secret techs. Kept him friendly the entire game! He still attacked and lost the game for me by pilaging my squares during the SS build. Yeh, no pleasing Monty.

rah · November 9, 2009, 09:47

It depends on the land also. Yeah, if I really work at it, I can get Tok pleased. Usually if I get a lucky religion spread that then gets me an open border. But if the board position is that I'm blocking him from expanding and I'm the only way out, that first DOW is usually against me so I never get the opportunity to join him in a war.

Dinner · November 9, 2009, 18:36

Honestly, I don't bother making friends with most aggressive AI civs. Instead if they start close to my starting position then I just figure conflict is inevitable so I plan to kill them before they kill me.

rah · November 10, 2009, 08:11

I like them having my religion so when I take them out, I don't have to convert them

While I generally agree with you, if you can get somewhat friendly, some times their first attack will be against another neighbor which allows you to gut them quite easily.

Nancy08 · November 11, 2009, 02:33

I got you point.

It is difficult to say what is impossible, for the dream of yesterday is the hope of today and the reality of tomorrow. - Robert H. Goddard, 1882-1945

A sense of humor is part of the art of leadership, of getting along with people, of getting things done. - Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1890-1969

Good ideas are not adopted automatically. They must be driven into practice with courageous patience. - Hyman Rickover, 1900-1986

rah · November 11, 2009, 08:26

The only points I want to see Nancy..................
We want naked pictures.

Anyone dumb enough not to figure out this bot, probably shouldn't be taking an IQ test.

Blaupanzer · November 11, 2009, 11:56

Having the crazies attack someone else first not only provides opportunity to use the force you were building up for defense to attack them, but gives you a plus up on your new neighbor when the two of you "allies" dissolve the crazy.

rah · November 11, 2009, 12:18

EXACTLY

Ming · November 18, 2009, 10:48

I sitll get annoyed with the random nature of it all... Last night, I again was in a situation where I was surrounded by AI's on a large Cont. The Americans (not Native) and I were the same religion. Washington was pleased with me, and had been since early in the game when I politely crammed my religion down his throat

We had traded many resources, and our trade routes were profitable.

I also had Monty, Shaka and Peter bordering me... and they were all the same religion and it wasn't mine. Needless to say, they all hated my guts and loved each other like brothers. I was also far ahead on the power graph. And of course, it was Washington, my buddy, who declared war on me first, even though Shaka was his worst enemy from a previous war, and they shared a border.

Sometimes, there is just nothing you can do about it

rah · November 18, 2009, 10:57

And that's why in the middle game or later I just don't worry about it. What's the point. I understand that Humans can manipulate it better blah blah blah so they want to still make it a challenge but if it's not somewhat consistent, what's the point of playing along with it.

Ming · November 18, 2009, 11:14

I think the game would be far more enjoyable if indeed there was more logic and consistency to it. I too would pay far more attention to it if it really mattered in the long run

rah · November 18, 2009, 11:46

Remember there are those that claim it is. And to some degree they're right once you get up to the Friendly level and it's not one of the psychos. But too many demands/requests for me to keep them that friendly. But sometime it works out that way. But then there's always that couple of turns when they drop below and decide it's time.

For those that know the specifics, does it vary by difficulty level?

Thoth · November 18, 2009, 11:57

Originally Posted by Ming

I sitll get annoyed with the random nature of it all... Last night, I again was in a situation where I was surrounded by AI's on a large Cont. The Americans (not Native) and I were the same religion. Washington was pleased with me, and had been since early in the game when I politely crammed my religion down his throat

We had traded many resources, and our trade routes were profitable.

I also had Monty, Shaka and Peter bordering me... and they were all the same religion and it wasn't mine. Needless to say, they all hated my guts and loved each other like brothers. I was also far ahead on the power graph. And of course, it was Washington, my buddy, who declared war on me first, even though Shaka was his worst enemy from a previous war, and they shared a border.

That's an ugly bunch to be sharing a continent with. They all have aggressive personalities (and get a hidden "warmonger's respect" diplo bonus with each other), they can (and often will) plan wars against civs they are pleased with, and have strong negative reactions to refused demands.

Washington may have been bribed into the DOW

If you have an autosave from a turn or two before the war declaration you could check to see if he's in WHEOOHRN. If he is, then he initiated the war (an AI cannot be bribed into a war if it is already planning one). If he's willing to declare on any of the other AI's or he gives another reason for not being willing to declare then he most likely got bribed into the war.

Sometimes, there is just nothing you can do about it

Thoth · November 18, 2009, 12:11

Originally Posted by rah

Remember there are those that claim it is. And to some degree they're right once you get up to the Friendly level and it's not one of the psychos. But too many demands/requests for me to keep them that friendly. But sometime it works out that way. But then there's always that couple of turns when they drop below and decide it's time.

For those that know the specifics, does it vary by difficulty level?

It varies by AI leader personality. Each one has a different threshold of positive diplo bonuses to get to pleased/friendly. Some are more demanding than others, and the degree to which the AI gets upset varies from leader to leader. Ghandi has very little (no? it's been awhile since he showed up in one of my games) diplo penalty for saying no to a demand. At the other extreme is Cathy who not only makes a lot of demands, she gives a -2 diplo penalty for each refused demand. She's relatively easy to get to pleased, but she's a treacherous snake. She will make war plans against civs she's pleased with, and is the only AI in the game who can be bribed into war with someone she's friendly with.

Friendly AI's can be well worth the effort to get in some circumstances. They will trade monopoly techs, can be bribed into wars with other AIs, won't make war plans against you (if they were already planning a war against you when you got them to pleased, they will still declare as the decision to go to war has already been made.) They'll even vote for you for a diplo victory as long as they like you more than the other candidate.

rah · November 18, 2009, 12:19

Thanks, some of those I knew, but does it change by difficulty level? It was my impression that it doesn't, but my knowledge in this area is not very good,

Ming · November 18, 2009, 12:27

I hear what you are saying Thoth... My point is, in my opinion, the diplomacy is just not consistent. I don't think a civ that is "pleased" with you and cautious at best with the other civs should be able to be bribed to declare war on you especially since it rarely works when I ask some civ to do it

Usually, unless they are friendly with me, the option to bribe them into declaring war on somebody else isn't even available. I just think diplomacy would be a lot more fun if it was actually logical and consistant.

Thoth · November 18, 2009, 12:53

Originally Posted by rah

Thanks, some of those I knew, but does it change by difficulty level? It was my impression that it doesn't, but my knowledge in this area is not very good,

AFAIK, the number of demands and the AI's reaction to a refused demand doesn't change by difficulty level.

It becomes harder to deter the AI through the power graph as you move up in difficulty as the AIs support and production discounts allow it to field a larger military. Some of the aggressive AIs (Monty and Shaka spring to mind) won't be deterred until your power is twice theirs.

Managing diplomacy gets more important as you move up in levels, founding and running a different religion than the neighbours is a luxury I've learned to forgo.

Ming · November 18, 2009, 13:05

Managing diplomacy gets more important as you move up in levels, founding and running a different religion than the neighbours is a luxury I've learned to forgo.

Isn't that the truth...
If I found an early religion at the high levels, I will try to convert as many neighbors as possible. If I fail, and another religion becomes dominate, I will switch to it if possible. I may switch to an opposite religion once it gets to the point that I really don't care what any of neighbors think anymore

rah · November 19, 2009, 09:16

If happiness isn't an issue, I find myself delaying choosing a religion these days for a few reasons.
1. I get the culture bonus for every religion instead of just one.
2. I don't waste a turn in anarchy. (assuming I'm not spiritual)
3. I get to see which religion wins the most advantageous to convert to award.

Blaupanzer · November 19, 2009, 12:28

Originally Posted by rah

Thanks, some of those I knew, but does it change by difficulty level? It was my impression that it doesn't, but my knowledge in this area is not very good,

In terms of diplomacy and religion, the AIs don't rise in difficulty level past Noble. They stay at Noble, no matter what level you play at.

So, no, it doesn't change by difficulty level, but it does change based on history. For example, as noted Ghandi is impervious to demand refusals, UNLESS you declared war on him earlier in the game. War declarations crank up a bunch of the AIs in their future responses.

Anyone know if the AIs make these requests/demands on each other. It would appear they will extort techs, but are not really asking each other for help. That impression is based on results observation, not on any code I've spotted.

brandonjm8 · November 19, 2009, 15:29

Originally Posted by Blaupanzer

In terms of diplomacy and religion, the AIs don't rise in difficulty level past Noble. They stay at Noble, no matter what level you play at.

So, no, it doesn't change by difficulty level, but it does change based on history. For example, as noted Ghandi is impervious to demand refusals, UNLESS you declared war on him earlier in the game. War declarations crank up a bunch of the AIs in their future responses.

Anyone know if the AIs make these requests/demands on each other. It would appear they will extort techs, but are not really asking each other for help. That impression is based on results observation, not on any code I've spotted.

ive noticed only "worst enemy", i too havent noticed anything like "you refused to trade with our worst enemy" or something of that nature, i have noticed on rare occasion "you've traded with our worst enemy" a few times between two AI's before, not much tho. as far as demands go, ive yet to see an AI do it to another. if im wrong or if people have, lemme know, thx.

Theben · November 20, 2009, 00:04

Originally Posted by Ming

If I found an early religion at the high levels, I will try to convert as many neighbors as possible. If I fail, and another religion becomes dominate, I will switch to it if possible. I may switch to an opposite religion once it gets to the point that I really don't care what any of neighbors think anymore

I'm playing a game where I had Monty and the Incas on my continent and DoWed both early to nab unescorted settlers and minimize their expansion. Later the Inca religion popped up in one of my cities and even tho I had my own I adopted his. He became my buddy and after I overran the Aztecs he offered to be my vassal.

Having religion

Having an AI religion