Cradle III...the download

[EPW]

I'm 200 turns into a game using the AE edition ona gigantic map with 16 civs.I have a few thoughtson the early game. This is on hard difficulty playing as the babylonians.

1. In the first 100 turns I received about 20(!)nomadsfrom ruins. I also received a dozen or so other units (including two slavemasters). This gave me an enormous boost in my early expansion.
2. Scouts: These guys are really annoying. The AI spams out dozens of these guys, and they can often congregate in your territory blocking roads. Thankfully, they do start to disappear once javelin cavalry is researched, but maybe take away their stealth ability so they get killed by barbs?
3. Taking cities is much harder with the New Combat option. It takes 2+ stacks of warriors/slingers to take a city with a spearman/slinger stack(on a 0 defense tile). I think this is a good thing.
4. I take back my above statement about the Egyptians.
5. I'm not quite sure how the religious victory works: Do you just need 3000 points to win? How do you get more points?
6. The poor Hebrews are getting swamped by 3 different civs, I pity them.
7. Pastures vs. farms, I really don't see the point of having two different tile improvements for grassland and plains since they each give the same bonus.
8. First level mines: 5-10 production bonus for 1000+ plus pw? I'll never build them.
9. No ZOC...I know it helps the AI, but I think it takes away a key tactical element.

That's all the criticism I can come up with right now.

[hexagonian]

Since I have some internet access while on vacation, I'll chime in some thoughts. Thanks for the feedback too!!!

1. In the first 100 turns I received about 20(!)nomadsfrom ruins. I also received a dozen or so other units (including two slavemasters). This gave me an enormous boost in my early expansion

I'm guessing that you also built a lot of early scouts to get this...

Several thoughts on the setup.

What I wanted to do was help the player get out of the early game rut when nothing really happens, at least compared to earlier versions of Cradle. The challenge in earlier Cradle was based on trying to dig out of a very deep hole because you were hamstrung...the AI had more settlers, more advances and more cheat bonuses. I wanted to close that gap, and felt that getting more settlers from goody huts was a way to make the game a little quicker and fun.

I also figured that the city cap would place a limit on peaceful expansionism. I do play the game with a house rule not to raze or starve any cities, so any conquest that I do has to take that aspect into account.

What you can do is move those nomads back to your cities and get a pop boost. A bit of a micro-management hassle though...

The AI will also pop huts, and has the same percentage chances, so they also benefit. As you have noted, the AI also builds a lot of Scouts too, so they can scour the map quickly (and see the follow-up notes on Scouts below).

I'm still in the process of rethinking this, but a determining factor has to do with the size maps and the quantity of civs that I normally play too...(gigantic/14+ civs) With that many civs on the map and with my house rules, I figure that the player may be able to dominate a few civs (with a little help from the player being able to establish himself quicker), but there will be others that will have the time and space to provide later challenges.

And after the Upate upload, for my current test game, I decided to scale back the nomad chance from approx 20% to 14%. I also noticed that although Slavemasters cannot be built by the player or the AI, they can still be popped from a goody hut, so the enable advance has been changed to fix this. I really wanted to downplay the battleslaving ability.

2. Scouts: These guys are really annoying. The AI spams out dozens of these guys, and they can often congregate in your territory blocking roads. Thankfully, they do start to disappear once javelin cavalry is researched, but maybe take away their stealth ability so they get killed by barbs?..

Like all trespassing units, you may need to deal with them with force.

And keep this in mind...They will upgrade to Jav Cavalry, and then you may face some good sized, extremely mobile enemy Jav-Cavalry stacks. I have lost some cities in this way in the early game. (and see ZOC feedback below for related info)

3. Taking cities is much harder with the New Combat option. It takes 2+ stacks of warriors/slingers to take a city with a spearman/slinger stack(on a 0 defense tile). I think this is a good thing...

Good, this makes going to AE appealing. One of my goals is to make city conquest hard and costly.

4. I take back my above statement about the Egyptians.

Excellent...at the same time, some Cradle civs are designed to be consistently good, based on their place in history.

5. I'm not quite sure how the religious victory works: Do you just need 3000 points to win? How do you get more points?

Be the first to establish religions (which can be hard in the early game) build Shrines, Temples, Theates, create the different Holy Text Wonders, and build some of the Religious Structure Wonders. After getting the points you have to get to Printing Press/Gutenberg's Bible to actually win.

Refer to the Great Library (Concepts) for the exact specifics.

6. The poor Hebrews are getting swamped by 3 different civs, I pity them.

Excellent!!!

7. Pastures vs. farms, I really don't see the point of having two different tile improvements for grassland and plains since they each give the same bonus.

It's a different bonus for each tile type. Pastures add more on Plains, Farms more on Grassland.

8. First level mines: 5-10 production bonus for 1000+ plus pw? I'll never build them.

I tend to build them because I like production. In earlier versions of Cradle, I would use farm specialists/slavers to achieve quick growth and then build TPs and Mines on everything, to the point that I actually added a negative food benefit to mines in Cradle to force me to build a mixture of improvements.

In my current test, I now have to work harder on slaving, but it is possible to still create some cities that are nothing more than glorified slave pits. It's just that slaving probably will not be possible in all cities like it was earlier, so farms and pastures become more valuable.

I actually never built farms/pastures when I played Cradle. I think that this difference of opinion is a good thing because it points out that either way is a viable option.

9. No ZOC...I know it helps the AI, but I think it takes away a key tactical element.

It may make player attacks easier, but those were never hard to begin with.

The removal is aimed on placing more difficulty on a player's defense. It adds a tactical element because the AI is not constrained and can better bypass your defenses now. Rather than having several turns of repositioning troops on a front, you have to committ to battle a little faster

It forces the player to deal with intruders rather than simply block them, and in the case of the Jav Cavalry stacks, places even more importance on inner defenses and mobility. If the AI gets behind your lines, you now have a much larger problem on your hands than in the past.

I rethought ZOC after a long argument with the AoM crowd...and one thing that I pointed out was that a ZOC in actual terms, deals with the threat that a dug-in army presents in a realistic fashion, not through some invisible force-field that would without fail, force every attacking army to walk miles (in the case of CTP2, up to two tiles distant) around a defender. The truth is...in a real battle situation, an attacker can walk past a dug-in force, but it is what the defender CHOOSES to do that determines ZOC. If the defender chooses to do nothing, there is no ZOC.

And in geographic terms...most terrain in any given chunk of land has a multiplicity of bypass points that would negate just about any choke point/ZOC established by a defender.

Leonidas chose his terrain very well and was able to hold off a superior Persian army, but was undone when the Persians were literally able to walk around the Greek forces.

[EPW]

Its kind of funny, the biggest problem the AI is having in the the AE edition is conquering too many cities. I'll comment on your comments a little later.

The new wonder movies are great btw. Short but sweet.

[hexagonian]

Its kind of funny, the biggest problem the AI is having in the the AE edition is conquering too many cities.

That is most encouraging to hear about AE...it has been (along with diplomacy) my biggest CTP2 gripe.

The new wonder movies are great btw. Short but sweet.

thanks!!!!

[EPW]

Since I have some internet access while on vacation, I'll chime in some thoughts. Thanks for the feedback too!!!


I'm guessing that you also built a lot of early scouts to get this...

Several thoughts on the setup.

What I wanted to do was help the player get out of the early game rut when nothing really happens, at least compared to earlier versions of Cradle. The challenge in earlier Cradle was based on trying to dig out of a very deep hole because you were hamstrung...the AI had more settlers, more advances and more cheat bonuses. I wanted to close that gap, and felt that getting more settlers from goody huts was a way to make the game a little quicker and fun.

I also figured that the city cap would place a limit on peaceful expansionism. I do play the game with a house rule not to raze or starve any cities, so any conquest that I do has to take that aspect into account.

What you can do is move those nomads back to your cities and get a pop boost. A bit of a micro-management hassle though...

The AI will also pop huts, and has the same percentage chances, so they also benefit. As you have noted, the AI also builds a lot of Scouts too, so they can scour the map quickly (and see the follow-up notes on Scouts below).

I'm still in the process of rethinking this, but a determining factor has to do with the size maps and the quantity of civs that I normally play too...(gigantic/14+ civs) With that many civs on the map and with my house rules, I figure that the player may be able to dominate a few civs (with a little help from the player being able to establish himself quicker), but there will be others that will have the time and space to provide later challenges.

And after the Upate upload, for my current test game, I decided to scale back the nomad chance from approx 20% to 14%. I also noticed that although Slavemasters cannot be built by the player or the AI, they can still be popped from a goody hut, so the enable advance has been changed to fix this. I really wanted to downplay the battleslaving ability.

It certainly speeds up the early game for the human player.
I am glad you are reducing the frequency, though I think 10% would be more reasonable. As you say, it does add micromanagement, especially on a large map. Another possibility would be to lower the number of ruins spawned on the map.

Like all trespassing units, you may need to deal with them with force.

And keep this in mind...They will upgrade to Jav Cavalry, and then you may face some good sized, extremely mobile enemy Jav-Cavalry stacks. I have lost some cities in this way in the early game. (and see ZOC feedback below for related info)

But I don't wanna!


I guess I'll have to suck it up and deal with them.

Excellent...at the same time, some Cradle civs are designed to be consistently good, based on their place in history.

Yeah, and the Egyptians make excellent slaves.

Be the first to establish religions (which can be hard in the early game) build Shrines, Temples, Theates, create the different Holy Text Wonders, and build some of the Religious Structure Wonders. After getting the points you have to get to Printing Press/Gutenberg's Bible to actually win.

Refer to the Great Library (Concepts) for the exact specifics.

Okay.

It's a different bonus for each tile type. Pastures add more on Plains, Farms more on Grassland.

Yes, that's what I meant. Now you could build pastures on grassland, or farms on plains for half price - but why would you ever do that? I always build the best improvement for the tile possible, which means I always build pastures on plains and farms on grassland - which each give the same bounus: +10 food. The Ai on the other hand, will mix it up and build the lesser improvement.

I tend to build them because I like production. In earlier versions of Cradle, I would use farm specialists/slavers to achieve quick growth and then build TPs and Mines on everything, to the point that I actually added a negative food benefit to mines in Cradle to force me to build a mixture of improvements.

In my current test, I now have to work harder on slaving, but it is possible to still create some cities that are nothing more than glorified slave pits. It's just that slaving probably will not be possible in all cities like it was earlier, so farms and pastures become more valuable.

I actually never built farms/pastures when I played Cradle. I think that this difference of opinion is a good thing because it points out that either way is a viable option.

Okay, I'll have to try that strategy before I comment further.

ZOC...

Your argument is pretty convincing.

[evrimy]

hey EPW,

I still have problems to run cradleIII with AE. it crashes to desktop between turns 30-80. i attached a crash text (but have no idea what it says).

I install a fresh copy of ctp2, patch with 1.11 (its not the regular patch, because it cant find the directory of ctp2; i remember i downloaded the one i use from apolyton as well some time ago), then first, i either install AE or cradleIII, and overwrite files when asked. both ways results the same crash.

can the problem be related to AE options, such as free upgrades for AI?

It seems the game is really evolving well, nation features will definitely will increase diversity if game play. I hope I can play it with AE.
thanks,
evrim

[EPW]

I install a fresh copy of ctp2, patch with 1.11 (its not the regular patch, because it cant find the directory of ctp2; i remember i downloaded the one i use from apolyton as well some time ago), then first, i either install AE or cradleIII, and overwrite files when asked. both ways results the same crash.

You shouldn't override the AE files directly. Follow the direction posted by Maq here:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5633911&postcount=3

and install the patch to the cradle III folder.

The file you posted isn't the crash.txt btw, I'm actually not sure what you posted. crash.txt should be called crash.txt and be in the ctp2_program/ctp directory, if you have logs enabled in userprofile.txt.

Were any AI's eliminated when the game crashed?

[evrimy]

hello again,

I installed AE and cradleIII like you suggested (same as in Maq's post). I changed the gamefile to play with government specific units. I had a crash again. This time I have the right crash file attached.

Is some kind of event, or government change causing problems, when you play with government specific units and AE?

[EPW]

Do you have the saved game right before the crash?

Is some kind of event, or government change causing problems, when you play with government specific units and AE?

I had no problem with this feature.

[evrimy]

update:
finally i can run cradleIII with AE. In addition to previous post, I also installed AEpatch for cradle from EPW (found in the same thread as Maqs post). I changed the gamefile for government specific units, and the game runs smoothly until turn 315, and beyond. I got some slic errors, but the game didnt crash and continued if I press yes to the question.

cradleIII-government specific untis
gigantic map
impossible difficulty
14 civilizations
turkish
bloodlust off (forgot the turn it on)

-I have 22 cities in a beautiful dictatorship .
-I have following important wonders: olympics (+2hp), hanging gardens, aristotales lyc... (no idea how to spell it now ), house of sargon, temple of zeus and solomon, and some other
-I lost the race for valley of the kings and cyrus cylinder, hydrian wall (I even didnt have the tech at that time), and the next 3 houses
-I am probably far behind in tech from the leader assyrians (++10 techs)
-For religious points, I am close to leaders, because I have some wonders and although they founded some religions
- It was a quite game (may be because bloodlust off),but probably because civilizations exceed their max city number by only one. the map is really huge and every civ had enough room to plant their own cities. My civ was isolated as well.
-not many stacks I needed to defeat in my territory. I conquered 3 isolated cities on my borders from etruscans, and some barbarians cities.
-I am currently in war with zulus on my east. After conquering 2 cities and razing another 2, they come for revenge. They liberated one of their cities, we sending stacks after stacks to the front. They have hydrians wall (+3hp), instant heal after battle, and they are beginning to get cities from celts on their east, given that now the city cap is 25. Its still a tough war, I need more troops.
-Some civilizations insist to stay at tyranny although they have dynasty. when I gift them city state they immediately change.
-In my game, roads still has the 3x multiplier for movement (cant imagine it would be only 2x).
-argh, the fortifications dont heal my troops!! (may be an issue from AE or AEpatch from EPW)
-removing slavemasters is really good idea, I used sargon and slavers to get slaves. With AE they got distributed relatively equally in my cities.
- Praetorian can still enslave defeated foes (may be still intended).

In general, although it was mostly a peaceful game, it felt more difficult than previous edition of cradleIII, probably because some civilizations have good advantages, and due to removal of extensive slavery. thanks to hex!
evrim

[EPW]

update:
finally i can run cradleIII with AE. In addition to previous post, I also installed AEpatch for cradle from EPW (found in the same thread as Maqs post).

Ah, I forgot to ask you the most important question.

I changed the gamefile for government specific units, and the game runs smoothly until turn 315, and beyond. I got some slic errors, but the game didnt crash and continued if I press yes to the question.

Yeah, there are still some slic errors lurking around. I noticed one when an AI captured a capitol, and one when upgrading.

-not many stacks I needed to defeat in my territory. I conquered 3 isolated cities on my borders from etruscans, and some barbarians cities.

This might be because I disabled frenzy. You can open CRASLC_script.slc, find the line towards the bottom called //#include "CRASL_frenzy.slc" and remove the the "//".

-argh, the fortifications dont heal my troops!! (may be an issue from AE or AEpatch from EPW)

oh yeah, I forgot about that. With the AE edition you can specify the heal rate of fortifications....I guess it defaults to no heal.

EDIT: actually, it doesn't appear that you can. Fortifications heal like cities...ugh.

[Maquiladora]

oh yeah, I forgot about that. With the AE edition you can specify the heal rate of fortifications....I guess it defaults to no heal.

EDIT: actually, it doesn't appear that you can. Fortifications heal like cities...ugh.

That should be easy for you to fix.

[hexagonian]

-I have following important wonders: olympics (+2hp), hanging gardens, aristotales lyc... (no idea how to spell it now ), house of sargon, temple of zeus and solomon, and some other
-I lost the race for valley of the kings and cyrus cylinder, hydrian wall (I even didnt have the tech at that time), and the next 3 houses

This is good because I want to see the AI get their share of wonders.

-I am probably far behind in tech from the leader assyrians (++10 techs)
-For religious points, I am close to leaders, because I have some wonders and although they founded some religions

Also good, at this difficulty level, the AI should still be running in front, IMO...

-not many stacks I needed to defeat in my territory. I conquered 3 isolated cities on my borders from etruscans, and some barbarians cities.

This is the one area where Frenzy may be preferable, because it does keep more pressure on the player to defend his land. Without that type of pressure, the player can expand more easily against the AI.

IMO, the non-government specific setup may be harder at this stage of the game for defense because the AI does not lose it's best units during a government transition.Those incoming Frenzy stacks can be brutal.

-I am currently in war with zulus on my east. After conquering 2 cities and razing another 2, they come for revenge. They liberated one of their cities, we sending stacks after stacks to the front. They have hydrians wall (+3hp), instant heal after battle, and they are beginning to get cities from celts on their east, given that now the city cap is 25. Its still a tough war, I need more troops.

This is what I like to hear...AI expansion due to war!!!

-Some civilizations insist to stay at tyranny although they have dynasty. when I gift them city state they immediately change.

I'm stumped on this one, because in Cradle strategies.txt, all strategies follow the Tyranny/Dynasty/City State path. It was my understanding that AIs will switch as soon as they get access to the higher government type.

-In my game, roads still has the 3x multiplier for movement (cant imagine it would be only 2x).

Currently this change is in playtest and has not been released publicly.

-removing slavemasters is really good idea, I used sargon and slavers to get slaves. With AE they got distributed relatively equally in my cities.

Excellent.

- Praetorian can still enslave defeated foes (may be still intended).

Intentional...I did want some government types (along with Calipahte) that would allow some slaving. Dictatorship has a lower cap than Tribunal and the Medieval governments, and since I play with the house rule of 'No Raze', it cuts down on an exploit of culling cities from other civs and weakening them. The city cap, if played with my house rule becomes the driving force to move to the more advanced governments, but with government-specific units, there is now a price to pay when you switch.

In general, although it was mostly a peaceful game, it felt more difficult than previous edition of cradleIII, probably because some civilizations have good advantages, and due to removal of extensive slavery. thanks to hex!
evrim

I'm glad you are enjoying it, and thanks for the feedback. Any suggestions to add/change and improve are welcome too.

[EPW]

PHOENICIAN is spelled wrong on line 862 in the traits2 file, causes a slic error everytime someone tries to build a trireme.

[hexagonian]

Thanks.

The fixes/additions for the next update are as follows.

- Fix PHOENICIAN spelling
- Fix HARAPPAN spelling
- Activate Etruscan trait message
- Fix ADVANCE_RELIGION ''Religion''
- Fix ADVANCE_POLYTHEISM ''Polytheism''

- Reduce chances for Nomads in ruins
- Block free Slavemasters from ruins

- Add new Stone Road tile improvement (3x movement)
- Reduce movement of Roads to 2x instead of 3x
- Small gold bonus for all Roads/Stone Roads/Rails (to simulate better trade)

UNDER CONSIDERATION...
- Civ traits will begin when a civ has risen
- Civ traits will end when a civ has historically disappeared
- Move Gutenberg's Bible to later in the game, or create a new wonder for later in the game to activate the Religious Victory.

Are there any other ideas out there???

BTW, I'm enjoying the AAR you are playing. I may start a open-ended Succession game myself on the next release.