The 'Macemen Moment'

[#07]

Fair enough, that's par for the course though, who wouldn't? I've noticed when you do that the tech loses its appeal after about the 2nd or 3rd trade. Also, isn't this exactly what the computer does - albeit more effectively?

[wodan11]

There are several tricks to power trading. It's not just trading 1 tech for multiple others. It's lightbulbing to get a high demand tech which the AIs will trade their mother for... you're not just trading this tech for 4-5 others, you're sometimes trading this tech for 10-15 others. It's keying your early development to get the key GPs to do that lightbulbing. It's brokering, knowing which techs you should trade for first in order to get a second tech which you can then trade for an additional other techs, and doing this repeatedly. It's exploration to find AIs, even other continents, to maximize this whole process.

That's off the cuff; I just got up, so there are probably other things which should be listed.

Anyway when the human does all this together, it way eclipses anything the AI can do. The AI does moderate trading, some better than others. It's better than a human who doesn't really focus on trading, but it's much worse than a human who's really good at it.

[rah]

That's why I call it an exploit. A lot of people claim it's the only way to win on the highest levels.

[Theben]

Not really. FE, was ICS or massive caravan production an exploit in CivII? Just b/c the human did it better...

[rah]

It's a gray area, and as always, exploits are in the eye of the beholder.
I don't want the only way to win be because the AI isn't good at trading techs and I could take advantage of it.

I remember hating III because you could never get a fair trade out of the AI.

[wodan11]

I wouldn't claim it's the only way to win at high levels (from firsthand experience I know it's not true).

I *do* think that if you're going to leave trading on, it's only fair to do some of this... after all, you betcha the AI is doing it to some degree as well.

Or, if you're going to prohibit yourself from trading at all, then it's fair to turn it off for the AI as well. Unless you're such a kick-butt-and-take-names player that you're looking for ways to handicap yourself....

[trev]

I just played a game as Brennus to give them a try, lost an emperor game to space race, I was a strong 2nd by then. I found it very difficult to maintain good enough GDP through the game, but some prioritising of military techs gave me advantages at the time of Currassiers, also Riflemen, Infantrymen, Tanks and Modern Armour which allowed me to progressively take out my neighbours. However my expansion phase was too late to catch up with Willem the tech leader and repeated sabotage of the Apollo Program prevented a serious effort to build spaceship parts. But interestingly at the conclusion of the game I had the highest GDP and well up the rankings in other aspects and was second in the tech race.
So it is possible to go well past the macemen moment, even with the French neighbour who fought the first war against me, he attacked, I stalemated that war for a long time until currassiers and riflemen allowed me to wipe him off all but some small islands. Romans Khmers and Portuguese all went in succession as I moved to infantry attackers and then tanks and Modern Armour.

[rah]

Brennus doesn't have the traits or UB that helps you keep up in techs. You really have to focus on how you're going to pay for your empire. His early game is usually better than his late game. If you can do it with Brennus you should be able to do it with anyone. But then I know you're a good player.

Did you build the pyramids?

[trev]

No pyramids from memory, did build stonehenge and Great Library I think, maybe another early wonder, mostly ran a lot of specialists in my capital as good sources of food were available, settling them, trying for engineers and prophets mostly for the hammers they give. Means I could get extreme production of military units from the capital, ie on marathon speed a Modern Armour every 2 turns with enough military instructors so they started at level four experience.
It makes for a slower start than other methods settling all specialists early in the game (often in late game I use some for golden ages), but putting them all in one city with instructors makes it one hell of a city for producing military units, with sufficient experience that mortality rates are low. Overall I probably build less units than many other people, preferring economic buildings in cities other than my capital.
So I often start slow and race to the front in the modern ages. After all Modern armour with CR3 plus flanking rarely dies and amny times they have more promotions than that.

[Hauptman]

The thing on emporer is you need to plan way ahead for wonders. Pyramids are great, i can out tech everyone if i build em, however it also leaves me open to an early rush from barbars or monty. If you dont start em early or chop like a madman pyramids are hard to pull off.

Same thing with the great library, if i get distracted for even an instant i miss it. But it's an essencial with a philo pyramid game. GP economy for the win!

[Ming]

I will sacrifice a lot for Pyramids... to me, that's one of the important ones. The ability to go rep early and the bonus for specialists makes it really effective. However, if I don't have ton's of trees... or stone... or am industrius... or in a location totally surrounded... I will pass on it. At the higher levels, it's easy to get rolled over by having your major production city working on it for too long.

[joncnunn]

It's really rare for me to build both the Pyramids and the Great Library in the same game. (Somewhat more rare than me starting near both Stone & Marble).

[Ming]

I very seldom built the Great Library. I have a different science path and Lit isn't high on my list at that point of the game. On the middle levels, I can sometimes get it... but at the higher levels, I don't stand a chance. I would much prefer to race to steel. Talk about a "maceman moment"... cannons rule. If you get them far ahead of the AI, (and they don't target it) you have a long window of opportunity when you are pretty much invincible. There is no counter to cannons except cavalry, which is far down the tech path.

[Theben]

Temple of Artemis+Pyramids+Great Library= lots o' science.






And a smaller empire.