Forts - What gives?

[rah]

I have BtS 3.17 and tried this last night: started a game with archipelago map, used worldbuilder to put an island across the water but in capital's BFC, added copper to island (it wasn't on the "mainland" so I didn't have to erase any), gave myself math & put a worker on the island.

I started the worker building a fort then road. Got copper after wheel, mining, BW, and sailing were researched, and cultural borders expanded to island.

....and the result was.............................

[Arrian]

I think the "got copper" means that it worked, rah.

-Arrian

[Lord Avalon]

Just to be thorough, I put Copper Island outside the BFC. Used a culture bomb.

Here's a screenshot for the reading impaired:

[Theben]

Looks as though you have some kind of mod. Blue Earth(or whatever it's called)? Anything else?

[Jaybe]

Looks like BUG mod (Field of View scroll & "2.67%" before the date, upper right; the two progress bars below the research bar).

I've read of BUG, but haven't used it.

[wodan11]

Okay, since everybody seems to be lazy (me included), I fired up plain BTS 3.17 (no mods) and did some WB testing with about every permutation you could think of.

Results:
-- Sailing required no matter what
-- Road only did not work
-- River only did not work
-- Fort DID work
-- City DID work
-- Interestingly, road crossing a river DID work (and yes the road had to CROSS the river)

Note for anyone who wants to duplicate these tests: you have to end a turn between each test. It doesn't appear to reset / check resource availability except between turns.

Proof of success in screenshots.

[Arrian]

Sweet. Good work, sir.

-Arrian

[Lord Avalon]

Looks as though you have some kind of mod. Blue Earth(or whatever it's called)? Anything else?

Looks like BUG mod (Field of View scroll & "2.67%" before the date, upper right; the two progress bars below the research bar).

I've read of BUG, but haven't used it.

Yeah, Blue Marble and BUG (which stands for BtS Unaltered Gameplay).

[Baldyr]

...and what about those pesky one-tile-islands? Do you really get a Fort that doubles as a naval/military/air-base AND gives you the resource? Does the same rules apply if the resource/island is outside of city radius, but within cultural borders?

edit: I suppose the guy before answered my question(s) with his test (BUG or no BUG).

[Baldyr]

Forts add +25% to defensive terrain. In the latest versions of BtS they do not remove forest/jungle.

They may be used as ports and airbases. They do not connect a resource on an island without a city on the same island, nor extend a trade network into the ocean. They may be built in neutral territory. With proper city/port placement you can create a canal with forts.

Building a fort on a resource allows the civ that owns the tile access to that resource, even if outside a city limit. Since it takes longer to build a fort than most other structures, forts used in this manner are normally only built (by players) on contended borders or on oil fields, b/c oil is discovered long before wells can be built.

So, it seems as the proposed entry for Forts (above) needs to be edited a bit then... What have we learned folks?

- Forts only give defensive bonuses inside ones own cultural borders, and function as cities when it comes to promotions (City Defense/Raider) and healing.

- The defensive bonus is added to the base terrain defensive bonus, just like forest/jungle is added to the hill bonus (and vice versa), and therefore cannot be bombarded (as city fortifications/cultural defensive bonuses can be).

- Forts connect resources to one's trade network within one's own cultural borders, even on islands (no matter the size, regardless if the tile has a river/road).

- One can relocate up to 4 aircraft (of some sort) to a Fort, but the Fort needs to be within your cultural borders (right?).

One thing that still feels unclear is whether Forts always are passable for ships, no matter who's ship and within anyone's cultural borders. Can anyone use a Fort-canal? What about a canal on neutral territory? Can there be naval battles within Forts, or are ships in Forts always safe from (naval) attack? Can opposing fleets actually co-exist in Forts not occupied by ground forces of these civs? If not, what if the Fort is on neutral territory?

Does anyone have anything else to add?

[wodan11]

...and what about those pesky one-tile-islands? Do you really get a Fort that doubles as a naval/military/air-base AND gives you the resource? Does the same rules apply if the resource/island is outside of city radius, but within cultural borders?

edit: I suppose the guy before answered my question(s) with his test (BUG or no BUG).

Yes. One tile fort no-road no-river DOES work.

This is a case where you HAVE to build a fort rather than an improvement (plantation, farm, etc) to get the resource. You have to give up the resource bonus. e.g., choose to get the corn resource, or build a farm and get the +2 food. If it's outside the fat cross, it's a no brainer to build the fort.

(Note I did NOT test with BUG, I tested with straight-up BTS 3.17.)

[wodan11]

Baldyr, this all sounds good, except for these notes / questions:

Forts only give defensive bonuses inside ones own cultural borders

You sure about that? I just have always assumed you got the bonus no matter what. e.g., An AI invades me, and if I don't man my fort so he just walks into it, will he get the bonus or not when I counterattack? This actually would be a negative for forts if it worked as I had always assumed.

Forts connect resources to one's trade network within one's own cultural borders, even on islands (no matter the size, regardless if the tile has a river/road).

That's not quite correct. You have to have a road from the improved resource to the fort, and both have to be in your borders. If the fort is ON the resource you don't need a road and (of course) the fort replaces the improvement.

[Theben]

- One can relocate up to 4 aircraft (of some sort) to a Fort, but the Fort needs to be within your cultural borders (right?).

One thing that still feels unclear is whether Forts always are passable for ships, no matter who's ship and within anyone's cultural borders. Can anyone use a Fort-canal? What about a canal on neutral territory? Can there be naval battles within Forts, or are ships in Forts always safe from (naval) attack? Can opposing fleets actually co-exist in Forts not occupied by ground forces of these civs? If not, what if the Fort is on neutral territory?

Forts in civs that you have an Open Borders agreement may be used by your ships and planes, and I would assume your troops as well.

[Baldyr]

You sure about that? I just have always assumed you got the bonus no matter what. e.g., An AI invades me, and if I don't man my fort so he just walks into it, will he get the bonus or not when I counterattack? This actually would be a negative for forts if it worked as I had always assumed.

Nope, I'm not sure about anything at all concerning Forts. That's why I ask you guys. I was just trying to summarize a bit, but I'm guessing it's still too early for that - since anyone doesn't seem to really know what gives.

That's not quite correct. You have to have a road from the improved resource to the fort, and both have to be in your borders. If the fort is ON the resource you don't need a road and (of course) the fort replaces the improvement.

Yes, of course - I was only thinking about the one-tile-island scenario. I'm not sure I understand your last sentence, though.

[Baldyr]

Forts in civs that you have an Open Borders agreement may be used by your ships and planes, and I would assume your troops as well.

Ah, but what about Forts in neutral territory? No ships/planes can ever occupy those, right? Do land units get bonuses in a neutral Fort? Otherwise, what would be the point with Forts outside your cultural borders?