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Thread: The NHL Off-Season Thread Starts With a Bang

  1. #271
    Asher
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
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    Sounds like a win-win to me. You swear at me, you get banned. Everyone is happy.
    Very much doubt everyone would be happy for banning me for going to town on you.

    I also cited his stats which were atrocious.

    As usual you ignore inconvenient facts.
    Atrocious? As usual you are a ****ing retard. They were similar to Raycroft's stats, but unlike Raycroft, Macklebackup's stats reflect the fact that he was mostly used as a sacrificial lamb -- thrown into games already long-lost without warmup behind a team that was playing brutally. You can't use those stats given those circumstances and the small sample size to make sweeping judgements about his play.

    If you look at the games he started and the team played for him, like vs Edmonton, he's a good player. Even during most of those games he was thrown to the wolves in, he played well but the defense infront of him was brutal.

  2. #272
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    I think we now have positive proof that Ben is Dale's DL
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  3. #273
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    Very much doubt everyone would be happy for banning me for going to town on you.
    Then announce that you are leaving forever, and see how people respond...

    Atrocious? As usual you are a ****ing retard. They were similar to Raycroft's stats,
    He was allowing half a goal a game more. That's significant. Over the course of say 20 games, that's another 10 goals. For a team that finished -5 in differential, -15 will have you finish well out of the division lead.

    small sample size to make sweeping judgements about his play.
    7 games >>>> 1 game. If you are arguing sample sizes...
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  4. #274
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    I think we now have positive proof that Ben is Dale's DL


    Hush now, rah.
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  5. #275
    Asher
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
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    Then announce that you are leaving forever, and see how people respond...
    It's been done.

    7 games >>>> 1 game. If you are arguing sample sizes...
    Hey, you are the epic retard that singled out that game. Not me.

    You're doubly screwed here. You obviously just like it.

  6. #276
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    Poly was greatly improved IIRC.
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  7. #277
    Asher
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    I'm sure you thought so.

  8. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
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    Demolished? You did nothing to address the fact that over the body of work last season, the Canucks now have the superior back up.
    I don't think it matters much who has the superior backup the key will be how well the first line goalies play and whether they stay healthy. If Kipper is better, the Flames should win the division. OH and I freely admit the superiority of Luongo over Kipper.

    But if we MUST compare the two backups lets look at al the facts heh??

    Racroft

    --had some small NHL experience over 3 seasons before he broke out as the Bruins goalie in 2003-2004 playing in 57 games and posting an excellent .926 sv %. He has never been anywhere near as good since, across 3 different teams, as his best sv % since is .892 over 72 games in 06-07 and he has twice had years with sv %s in the .870s (much fewer games). IN fact in the 4 years since his breakout year, his sv% is worse with the fewer number of games he plays-- see gp and sv % by year below

    30-.879
    72- .894
    19-.876
    31- .892

    So overall you have a 29 year old keeper with one great year, 7 years of experience, and a history that doesn't suggest he is stellar when he plays little

    Mcelhinney

    is slightly younger(26) and far more inexperienced. He has appeared in a grand total of 19 games in the NHL in his careeer (and one of those was 12 seconds). Last year he started a grand total of SIX games and as Asher said, the Flames generally failed to show up. He faced on average slightly more than 37 shots per start and having watched most of those starts I know that generally he held the team in for a while before the multiple breakaways and defensive breakdowns left him high and dry too often and the goals started to come.

    With such limited time its hard to fully assess his abilities-- he is a bit of an unknown. The belief in Calgary is that the last game of last season where he FINALLY got a win with a 35 save .972 should get the "never won" monkey off his back and the fact that he has pretty decent skills should mean reasonably good performance.

    The theory is that with a new coach perhaps they stay focused to actually play for the poor guy and overall better defense and more starts should see him in good stead to do just fine.


    The reality is that we really do not know what to expect but my prediction is that they tentatively give McElhinney 15 starts or more and with the added experience and confidence, he does just fine.


    Is he better than Raycroft? I really don't care. If he plays well while giving Kipper more of a break, I will be happy

  9. #279
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    Blackhawks re-re-sign Versteeg. Three years, $9.25MM.
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  10. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sava View Post
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    I love the Jokinen argument.
    and I love that you waded in-- I'm always happy to debate or just shoot the breeze with people that pay attention to hockey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sava View Post
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    You guys failed to mention that he scored all his Flames regular season goals in the first six games (a hat trick on 3/14 against Gerber of all people... 2 of which were on the PP), then disappeared until Game 4. He's also on the wrong side of 30, has seen both his goal and point total decline 3 straight years, and is -85 for his career.


    .
    I failed to mention none of those things. They are all good and valid points (one correction is his point totals have dipped for the last TWO years not three-- 06-07 was his peak with 91 after 89 the year before, and he has had 71 and 57 in the ensuing years). I confess I am concerned by his drop off. But with the flames his goal per game rate in the regular season would net 35 if pro-rated for an entire season-- a level I would be completely happy with-- I would have liked to see more assists though as he typically had more assists than goals.

    Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of concern over the fact that Jokkinen did not really produce well in the playoffs but there are some positives

    - the guy will hit-- I saw several games where he dished out some punishing hits
    - I think he is a slightly better passer than Cammy

    Other than those I concurr in worrying about how good Jokkinen will be. But being right at 30 years of age I see no reason why he cannot be a very good number 1 or 2 centre on the Flames.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sava View Post
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    Cammalleri, OTOH, just turned 27 and is coming off a career year in goals and points.

    .
    Perfectly true. While I don't see 3 years as a huge difference at 27 to 30 it does mean there is a little more upside for Cammy . I see Cammy as a far better pure shooter but not nearly as physical and not quite as good playmaker as Jokkinen. Having seen Cammy all year I know that a LOT of his goals are on that patented one-timer of his. He will be missed.


    IN a non-salary cap world where the only consideration was the player, would I trade Cammy away for Jokkinen straight up? I probably wouldn't but I can understand for the Flames how that question would at least be arguable. The Flames want to be more physical and "in-your-face" and that is an element Jokkinen can bring.As well the Flames have desparately trying to find a great set-up man for Iginla. I don't know that Jokkinen will fit that bill but he has a better chance of fulfilling that role than Cammy IMHO.

    Overall I thought it was a decent try at the trade deadline to get Jokkinen.. I don't regret that move and am willing to give Jokkinen this season to prove himself. I do regret that salary cap issues mean we lose cammaleri but there the reality is that the Boumeester signing is probably the main reason there is no Cammaleri in Calgary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sava View Post
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    Iginla could be good for 40 goals. 50 would be a stretch, but wouldn't surprise me. Although, he had a terrible playoffs. 3 goals, well, 1 was an empty netter. And he was -4.


    .
    Iggy needs to be better and show me more. I fear he is starting to decline generally and I was completely unimpressed by his playoff effort

    Quote Originally Posted by Sava View Post
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    Calgary can hope for second in their division and a first round exit at best.
    .
    I see the smiley but will give my assessment/refutation anyway

    Last year the Flames had

    -- a Kipper that was so-so
    -- a Phaneuf that was worse defensively than the previous year
    -- an injured Regehr
    -- a coach that overplayed veterans, had no real system and who juggled his lines about every 30 seconds

    and the Flames missed winning the division by what, a point?


    Since then they have obtained a very successful coach and perhaps the best d-man available. The blue line looks solid even if Phaneuf is shaky and blue-chip if he returns to prior form.

    So I think you have to consider the Flames to be contenders for the division. Given how Vancouver have essentially stood still, I would think the Flames would be favored.


    1st round playoff exit?? Depends. Asher may disagree with me but I see the last two years as ones where even a moderately elite Kipper would have seen them win the series. IMHO he has been paid to be a top 10 goalie in the league and has NOT performed at that level. If he does, the Flames are now designed to be able to take out pretty much any team in the league-- To me though, its a big question mark.

    Its why , despite my defence of McElhinney and belief in his possibilities, I wished the Flames had picked up a more experienced backup -- you know the kind that might play well enough to earn back to back starts. I am frankly sick of the idea that it is good to play Kipper all the time
    Last edited by Flubber; July 9, 2009 at 16:17.

  11. #281
    Ben Kenobi
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    Its why , despite my defence of McElhinney and belief in his possibilities, I wished the Flames had picked up a more experienced backup -- you know the kind that might play well enough to earn back to back starts. I am frankly sick of the idea that it is good to play Kipper all the time
    That strategy cost you the division. Had he been more rested, he would have continued a high level of play.

    Kipper's a good goalie, but you folks played him way too much. Hopefully the kid can step up.

    I wish the canucks kept Labarbera tho. Good goalie.
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  12. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
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    That strategy cost you the division. Had he been more rested, he would have continued a high level of play.
    Perhaps-- BUt last year I never saw a "high level" of play from Kipper that appreciably dropped off as the season went on. He was just simply 'ok" for most of the year IMHO


    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
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    Kipper's a good goalie, but you folks played him way too much. Hopefully the kid can step up.
    I agree. I have never really believed that there is any benefit to a goalie's long term play to appear in any more than 60 games (I am not saying it hurts). To me the only reason to work your number 1 any more than in the 60s is if you are tooth and nail to make the playoffs.

    I think the kid will step up and I am hoping that Calgary will demonstrate a dominating defence which means fewer shots/chances agains whomever is in net.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
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    I wish the canucks kept Labarbera tho. Good goalie.
    I agree he can be pretty good. I think though that he wants a chance at being more than what he can ever hope for being behind Luongo. Realistically unless Luongo gets injured his maximum playing time would be 20 (more likely 15) games and probably less if the Canucks are pushing for a playoff spot or division win.

    IN a place like Phoenix he has a chance to start more and perhaps even win the #1 job. I think teams believe he has that potential

  13. #283
    Asher
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    On a more fun note, there's a cool brief CBC vid on Curtis Glencross and what he does at the Stampede in the off-season:

    http://www.cbc.ca/sports/ondemand/?p...oId=1178918561

    Still can't believe the Oilers didn't sign him after his stint with them.
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  14. #284
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    He would have been good to keep around, but rumours were he was asking a lot more than he ended up signing for in Calgary.

    In my mind it played out as a 'you don't think I'm worth it? Well I'll show you..." It may not have been that way, but that was my impression.
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  15. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by notyoueither View Post
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    Is Tallon fired before the season starts?

    Not a difficult call.

    Heard on local radio. Link confirms:
    http://csnchicago.com/pages/new_land...735&feedID=661
    Mora: Blackhawks Fire GM Dale Tallon

    CSNChicago.com

    CSN's Josh Mora is reporting that the Blackhawks have fired GM Dale Tallon and an official announcement will be made on Tuesday.

    Tallon has recently come under fire when the team failed to get qualifying offers out in time to several restricted free agents including Kris Versteeg.

    Stan Bowman will replace Tallon as GM.

    Tune into SportsNite at 12 for complete coverage from CSN's Josh Mora.
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  16. #286
    Asher
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    Martin Havlat is starting a shitstorm on Twitter.

    http://twitter.com/martinhavlat
    I guess everyone saw what happened to Dale....yes, the story is starting to come out but it's just the tip of the iceberg.

    Lot's of people are telling me to stay quiet but shouldn't the fans know the truth? It's your loyalty, season ticket money and emotions here

    Just so everyone begins to understand, Dale was like a 2nd father to me.

    Want to be clear. I loved my time in Chicago but moved on. Very excited about Minny,going to give everything I have to the Wild.

    @andrewSegal As I said before, I didn't leave Chicago, it left me.

    By telling truth, don't want people to think I'm bitter. Everyone in Minn has been awesome, they believe in me and I won't let them down
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  17. #287
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    Tallon was the architect of his own demise. He cost the Hawks several million in precious cap space, which will prove critical in the next few years.

    As for Havlat, he's just got his knickers in a twist because now he won't be getting a shot at the Cup in the foreseeable future. Sure, the Hawks walked away, but they couldn't sign everyone. The question the team had to answer (it seems clear to me) was:

    If you can only have one, which of the following two combos would you rather have:
    A) Khabibulin-Havlat, or B) Huet-Hossa?

    The Hawks made their choice and will live with the results.
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  18. #288
    Asher
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    New NHL schedule is out.

    The Flames play 3 games in 3 nights, and 4 games in 5 nights (twice): December 27/28/30/31, and January 5/6/8/9 (that's 9 games in 14 nights, also).

    Very, very unusual...due to the Olympics.

    Vancouver gets a 14-game, 40 day roadtrip.
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  19. #289
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    As for the Tallon saga:

    DREGER: WHAT LED TO CHICAGO'S FRONT OFFICE SHUFFLE?

    Sentiment - bordering on outrage - best describes how many NHL people responded to the news of Dale Tallon's dismissal as general manager of the Chicago Blackhawks.

    However, anyone shocked by this move by team president John McDonough didn't pay attention to the constant speculation of Tallon's demise at varying points of the season.

    Some close to the organization believe McDonough was looking for an opportunity to make his move which was made very difficult by Chicago's trip to the western conference final and a season most around the league would consider a great success.

    There's no question the Blackhawks' recent fumble with qualifying offers (that weren't filed on time for the team's restricted free agents) was an enormous unforced error and while it has been suggested Tallon wasn't responsible for the blunder, as GM he took responsibility.

    Was this mistake - as costly as it turned out to be - really his undoing?

    What we know is there is a groundswell of sympathy for Tallon, who, upon learning his fate, was also handed a two-year contract to act as an advisor at the same rate of pay he was earning as Chicago's general manager.

    This groundswell also extends to former Blackhawks forward Martin Havlat, who - through the direct link of Twitter - continues to tease Hawks fans with suggestive tweets that indicate Dale Tallon's firing was very predictable. "Tip of the iceberg," Havlat wrote in one tweet. In another, he asked, "shouldn't fans know the truth?"

    Shortly after that, Havlat's Twitter account crashed because of an overload of responses.

    Yes, Chicago Blackhawks fans want to know the truth.

    They want to know what Havlat believes led to Tallon's firing.

    Hawks fans want to understand how a negotiation that lasted better than three months, focused on keeping Havlat a Hawk long term and involved his agent Allan Walsh, Tallon and now Chicago's newest GM, Stan Bowman, mysteriously eroded.

    Aside from reaching out via Twitter, Havlat has been silent and wants to move on and focus on his new home and opportunity with the Minnesota Wild. However, Havlat also wants to clear the air and set the record straight and has offered his thoughts exclusively to TSN.ca on a number of issues he observed while in Chicago, starting with his failed negotiation.

    "My negotiation with Chicago was not between Dale and my agent, it was between Dale and McDonough," Havlat said "Why? Because McDonough couldn't stand that Dale was so successful and getting the credit for building the Hawks from a last place team to making the Conference Final in three short years. Remember, we were also the youngest team in the NHL last year."

    "I was too closely identified with Dale," he continued. "McDonough knew long ago he was going to fire Dale. He wanted someone he could claim as his own He wanted to stand up at the convention and claim credit for signing this guy or that guy."

    Havlat's candor won't be easily accepted by the Blackhawks, and there may be claims of this being nothing more than the backlash of a jilted player, but Havlat's appreciation for Dale Tallon is what drove him to speak up mere hours after Tallon's firing was confirmed.

    "Dale and I were very close and I stand for loyalty. The players loved Dale and they are with him. Every single player on that team is with Dale. I still talk to the guys all the time, hockey players know a phony when they see one."

    "I was part of a very special team but that team doesn't exist anymore. I am really disappointed that Rocky Wirtz would let something like this happen," Havlat told TSN.ca.

    Havlat's parting request follows up on a tweet sent on Tuesday. A challenge for the Blackhawks faithful who may share his views on Chicago's future.

    "It's up to the fans now to be heard on this. If you care about the direction of the team, do something about it," Havlat concluded.

    That's powerful stuff from a player who loved Chicago, loved the Blackhawks organization, and clearly has a deep connection with Dale Tallon, now the former general manager.
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  20. #290
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    Of course Havlat loved Dale. Tallon overpaid for the guy. For $6 million a year, we got two injury plagued seasons (out of three) from a guy that can't score 30 goals a season even when he does manage to stay healthy. Have fun in Minnesota, Marty.

    On a side note, I must say that the quality of the NHL is still pretty low. Since the early 90's, it's been downhill. The early part of this decade was the worst (Jarome Iginla winning an Art Ross with 96 points in a god awful NHL season overall). Things haven't gotten much better. When the likes of Ovechkin, Malkin and Crosby are the best the league has to offer, you know you're in trouble. None of the names that struggle to reach the top of the scoring sheets now compare to the stars of just a few years back. The talent doesn't compare either. The same year (2001-2002) when a guy like Iginla can lead the league in scoring, when he was in his prime, a 40 year old Adam Oates was among the leaders in assists. Iginla is still among the top players in the game, and the few guys that best him don't do it by much.

    The league is a shadow of its former self. And I don't see much hope for improvement on the horizon. In all honesty, Patrick Kane is not that great a hockey player. But he's the coverboy of NHL10. He'll probably take his place among the NHL's elite next year as the Hawks contend for the Cup once again. It's all become just an exercise in mediocrity.

    I play hockey with guys (local leagues, rat, ice and roller) that have close to as much skill as some of the guys I see skating first line minutes in the NHL. The thing that separates the pros these days are the hockey pedigree of being in the system since they were kids and the difference in athleticism they are able to enjoy due to the advantage of receiving a pro-contract. This observation is not meant to be a testament to how good the players on my level are... or me for that matter. We'd all get served. But if afforded the relative advantages, many of the same players I see could easily compete on the pro-semipro level. I think that says more about the lack of talent, the mediocrity, and parity of players in professional hockey today. For heaven's sake, Chris Chelios was still playing. That should tell you something about what it takes to make it on an NHL roster these days.

    The fact that guys like Ovechkin and Crosby aren't scoring 75 goals a season is proof that they aren't superstars like the Gretzky's and Lemieux's. They're merely the cream of a very mediocre crop.
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  21. #291
    Asher
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    I do not at all agree. I think the goaltending since the mid 90s has improved by leaps and bounds (Roy and Brodeur and all of their clones) and as a result, scoring dipped. With the rule changes and the emphasis on younger speed and talent, the game's been better than it's been since I've started watching it for the most part.

    The talent level for guys like Ovechkin, Crosby, and Malkin are off the charts. Better than Selanne, for sure, who scored 76 goals and 132 points in his rookie season. But the game was different back then. It's not that the forwards are less talented, it's that the goalies and defense were far worse. In the late 90s onwards, the emphasis for most teams went on team defense and goaltending over run and gun style shoot-em-up hockey like the 80s and early 90s. It wasn't even until the 90s that goaltending coaches even existed.

    I honestly think you're prescribing lower scoring to lower talent forwards, when the real cause was far better goaltending and defensive play. And your comment about playing with guys in local leagues who are talented enough to make 1st line icetime minutes is, frankly, preposterous.
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  22. #292
    Sava
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    The goaltending is easy to explain.

    I'll use Roy as an example since his career was long enough.

    Here's Roy early in his career:

    note the size of the pads... especially the size of his arms.

    Here's Roy on the Avalanche:


    I'm glad you brought Selanne up. He had 48 goals and 94 points in 2006-2007 at the age of 36. So if a 36 year old Selanne does that in today's NHL. What does 22 year old Selanne do?

    Sure, the worst of 80's and early 90's (goaltending and D) were bad. They wouldn't be on today's NHL rosters. But that doesn't negate my point. It's just mediocre now. Everyone can skate and shoot. It's a question of parity. Nobody is really all that great. And the superstars of the 80's and 90's would still be dominant today. In fact, the careers that did overlap this era have shown that older, broken down superstars of that day are still among the NHL's elite. Which, IMO, does not compare to the 80's and 90's.

    And reread what I said about the guys that I play with (or have seen in the same level). I think you misunderstand the point. To further elaborate, talent is one aspect of a player. The NHL player has athleticism (a luxury gained by the free time afforded a player through rigorous practice and work out schedules) which leads to size and speed. The actual talent of passing, shooting, awareness, stickhandling are skills where the disparity is not as great. Most of the people I've seen can easily make an NHL roster if all they did was work out and play hockey all day. Another part of it is the culture of being in NHL systems. Playing for certain leagues and junior systems. Even guys that play in America college leagues don't have as good a chance to make an NHL roster despite the fact that they are just as good as their counterparts across the world. NHL clubs are biased towards certain leagues, systems, even body types (height/weight).
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  23. #293
    Asher
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    Still don't agree...

    Anyway, Flames claimed Nigel Dawes off waivers. Great pickup, I think.
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  24. #294
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    Sava, I think your point about athleticism is off. The person who becomes a top professional athlete starts out with a higher natural athleticism than your average person. You put them through the same years of playing & training, and, assuming similar good work ethic, and it's the one with the greater natural ability who gets to the pros.

    Even a mediocre NHL player is a better athlete than players who can't make it out of the minors (generally speaking).

    Also, about goalies - aren't there a lot more goalies who are just bigger than previous decades (not just using bigger pads)? In the past didn't goalies play standing up more? Now you've got guys who go down in the butterfly, but who are so big they still block a lot of the net.
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  25. #295
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    You have a point about goalies, LA, but still, the goalie equipment has gotten out of control. This must be addressed.
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  26. #296
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    Used to play goalie in my rec league. Wore pads similar to the '84 pads for Roy, catcher's mitt, blocker, helmet, no chest protector. Was never all that comfortable with the goalie sticks.

    We had guys with the full out pro gear. Changes the position from being reflexes to positioning. Move out forms a wall, and that's it.
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  27. #297
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    That's an interesting rant, Sava. I don't think I can agree, but it is a very flashy hook.
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  28. #298
    Asher
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    Washington trades Keith Seabrook to the Flames for "future considerations". Brent Seabrook's brother. Plays for the Calgary Hitmen (WHL) right now, with some awesome numbers for a defenseman: http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=5967

    Last season he had 55 points in 64 games, +22

    I definitely approve of these transactions going on. Sutter's stocking the team with a bunch of very, very low-pay, high-potential young guys. Perfect way to go, IMHO.
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  29. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asher View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Washington trades Keith Seabrook to the Flames for "future considerations". Brent Seabrook's brother. Plays for the Calgary Hitmen (WHL) right now, with some awesome numbers for a defenseman: http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=5967

    Last season he had 55 points in 64 games, +22

    I definitely approve of these transactions going on. Sutter's stocking the team with a bunch of very, very low-pay, high-potential young guys. Perfect way to go, IMHO.

    He was very good for the Hitmen this year. I also approve of this pickup. Sutter is definitely going with the "you never have enough defence" approach. I would not be shocked to see this kid with the big club at some point in the year

  30. #300
    Asher
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    More importantly, the AHL team should be good this year. A good AHL team is great for development.

    Plus it's only an hour from Calgary now.
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