New PBEM Classic SMAC

vyeh · April 20, 2009, 14:41

I don't see a way to adjust the accumulated labs toward the tech currently being researched. I propose that I simply give each player the tech they are currently researching in addition to the techs already acquired.

St Jon · April 20, 2009, 17:20

Fine by me and seems fair and straight-forward.

Thanks again.

florin79c · April 21, 2009, 11:54

NAY !

I think at this point a restart will be the thing to do. Sorry Vyeh but looks like i was the one in disadvatage and this will only disatvantage me more.

I would like Monty's coment on this as well.

vyeh · April 21, 2009, 12:41

I've already recorded the positions and am in the middle of setting up the University. I've already set up the Hive and Morgan.

There have been some SE switches (although one of them must have just occured given the message at the beginning of the turn).

I could go through and figure out how the other 3 players (inadvertently) took advantage of their easier difficulty level.

As an aside, I don't expect inexperienced players to realize that it cost 40 credits to change one SE setting (and 135 to change 2) at Transcend.

At this point, it looks like Morgan (Friendly Fire) and University (mmontgomery) might have benefitted from a decrease in SE switching cost.

It doesn't look like anyone benefitted for more than the last turn from not having a drone they should have had (since a police unit would have allowed bases to grow to 2).

Perhaps we could fix the disadvantage if Friendly Fire and mmontgomery could tell me how much it cost to switch SE and I could deduct the difference from their energy reserves.

And it looks like zsozso reported the problem as soon as he could have been aware of it and he has gained no advantage from his easier difficulty level.

By the way, simply toggling the scenario rules (as Mart suggested) doesn't seem to be enough. Googlie mentioned a procedure where each faction is temporarily given a tech enabling a society model and one checks to see if the SE switching cost is right.

zsozso · April 21, 2009, 12:58

As vyeh said, in my case starting from the beginning of the last turn we played with drone riot for pop2 base would completely remove any advantage I got from not being in transcend difficulty. I do not know what is the situation for Monty and FF. If their advantages can also be fully rectified then we could go on. But I am also OK with restarting, so mark me down as ABSTAIN for the vote.

ps: Does the tech cost depend on difficulty level ? If it does then we must restart because that cannot be fixed for all the players.

St Jon · April 21, 2009, 15:31

I cannot remember the the exact cost - for some reason I can remember it to have been ?8. It was not very much but I didn't even think about it at the time. I'm fine with either an adjustment to my Energy or a re-load though Morgan is going to be in big problems with no Energy and Drone riots everywhere. So if Florin does not think it can be made fair then a re-start otherwise I will face the Drones!

florin79c · April 21, 2009, 15:39

I'm still wating on monty's idea of this.

vyeh · April 21, 2009, 16:53

Originally Posted by Friendly Fire

I cannot remember the the exact cost - for some reason I can remember it to have been ?8. It was not very much but I didn't even think about it at the time. I'm fine with either an adjustment to my Energy or a re-load though Morgan is going to be in big problems with no Energy and Drone riots everywhere. So if Florin does not think it can be made fair then a re-start otherwise I will face the Drones!

I went into the save you provided me. An SE switch costs 24 credits when it should have cost 40. Assuming you only made one SE switch, I would deduct 16 credits from your position.

Edit: Friendly Fire, while you're waiting for mmontgomery to respond regarding this game and Ironwood to respond regarding the other game, you might be interested in looking at this thread on playing Morgan. In particular, CEO Aaron plays Morgan frequently.

vyeh · April 22, 2009, 09:08

Friendly Fire,

Could you send an email to mmontgomery? Maybe he only looks into the TTT to post that he has sent the turn or when the turn is overdue.

I've currently replicated the players positions with the exception that I need to replicate the explored portions (that involves creating some locusts to sweep out the explored area and then deleting them; unfortunately, if you reveal a square, you can't make it hidden again).

A restart would be pretty straightforward. I would go into the original scenario and make very sure that the difficulty levels have taken for each faction (probably by temporarily giving each faction a tech that gives a society model and making sure the SE switching cost is 40).

While I'm doing it, there was a minor issue previously raised.

Would players like to see a fat cross (base radius) around their starting positions? That way when you establish your first base, you would be able to work 20 squares rather than only 8 squares without having to move your units.

I would also establish bases for the 3 AI factions. Sadly, when the AI factions did their 24 turns in my simulation, they moved away from ideal starting positions to establish their first base elsewhere!

It looks to me that zsozso and Friendly Fire are happy with either a restart or a fix. I have the same position.

St Jon · April 22, 2009, 09:53

Ok, email sent as requested.

mmontgomery · April 22, 2009, 20:56

Sorry guys to be so late to the discussion.

If a reasonable fix can be done, It would advance our game by over a month, so I am good for that.

As was pointed out, I saved 16 credits on the SE switch, so take that from my energy reserves. My research was going to be done next turn, so I get no advantage from getting the current research for free, but I don't mind everyone else getting a research bonus.

As for discovery, since we are playing on a known map, I don't care if the entire map is revealed for everyone. After all, all they need to do is load the map into the editor and explore it to see all of the features anyway.

As for AI factions, definitely locate their bases for them. Heck, give them a third starting base. AI is normally just cannon fodder anyway, so this would give them a fighting chance.

All this being said, I am OK with a restart as well. Nothing really special happened, anyway. It is just that it will take some time for us to get back to where we are.

Also, just to make sure everyone knows, this Veterans map allows 7 bases to be established at normal efficiency without drone penalties. The 8th base will cause extra drones (unless you are +efficient).

Experienced players realize that expansion to the first 7 bases has to be a top priority. If you take time to do anything else other than create colony pods as fast as your population growth will permit, you will fall behind in the critical early game.

I have actually seen people prioritize building sensors under their early bases verses rapid expansion. This can be a great idea for later bases, but early growth is too important to wait for sensors to be built. If you do this, you WILL lose to someone who grows faster. At least, this has been my experience.

As for Morgan, I always switch to Free Market ASAP, and spend some money on Psych as needed for drone control, until I can rush build some Rec Commons. I consider myself an expert on Morgan, and am happy to answer questions by either post or email.

vyeh · April 22, 2009, 21:34

I sent a PM to mmontgomery (I needed to discuss something about his position that has some competitive significance so a PM seemed the way to go).

florin79c · April 23, 2009, 03:55

ok, go on with the game

mmontgomery · April 23, 2009, 10:31

I replied to vyeh's message, so we should be good to go.

vyeh · April 23, 2009, 12:24

Almost good to go. I sent another PM to mmontgomery seeking clarification.

I discovered that you can cover up a map square in the scenario generator. After I reveal the necessary map squares for the last AI faction (5 minutes), I need to:

(1) deduct energy credits from St. Jon (fka Friendly Fire) and mmontgomery (5 minutes)

(2) run through one year to set passwords (5 minutes)

(3) run through another year to check positions of the fixed version against my notes of the position from the original version (half an hour)

(4) fix any discrepancies, set passwords and check again (half an hour).

St Jon · April 23, 2009, 14:31

Once again Vyeh you have gone above and beyond what we could possibly ask. Thanks very much indeed!

vyeh · April 23, 2009, 15:17

Wait until I deliver. Still waiting for mmontgomery.

mmontgomery · April 23, 2009, 23:36

I just replied. Had to work late, and just got home.

zsozso · April 24, 2009, 12:09

A million thanks to vyeh for going into all this trouble to help us out in this game!

vyeh · April 24, 2009, 12:27

I attached the fixed file in the TTT.

FF sent me a file that was ready for him to play. I've produced a fixed file for FF (now SJ) ready for him to play.

I've tried as much as possible to make the files the same.

Differences:

(1) The AI's are a guess. I ran them automatically and looked at their position. I did follow mmontgomery's suggestion and give each of them a new base in a prime spot near their existing bases.

(2) I couldn't replicate accumulated labs, so everybody has the tech they were researching in the old file. I chose new techs for each player. If you don't like it, choose change research goals. You'll lose half the accumulated labs, but it won't be much.

(3) One player got an extra 2 credits and an extra nutrient in a base box. Another player's former will only require 2 years to complete a task rather than 3 years. There was no way to avoid this (I iterated several times modifying my scenario and trying different tactics in the turn I set the passwords.) Where it was a choice between a player losing a little or gaining a little, I went with gaining a little.

(4) All players are at transcend difficulty in the fixed file.

(5) FF (now St Jon) and mmontgomery had their energy reserves adjusted to reflect the cheaper SE cost they had under the old file.

(6) A couple of bases will go into drone riot when the player opens the file. For one player, this is the natural consequence of the previous year's move (there was a SE switch. For zsozso, he got a drone riot a year after when he expected (it was his report that brought the problem to light).

Please note that St Jon will have to convert the save provided by me. The link is to a thread with a Mac to Win converter.

I use a Mac. If you don't convert the file, you can open it, but you can't save it. It is important that St Jon convert the file first, then open the converted file and play it. Otherwise he can't pass the game along.

Please report any observations in this thread. If there are any issues, it won't be much problem to fix them. In particular, I was using locusts of chiron to reveal map squares. I think I deleted them all; obviously, if I forgot one, it would be like having a super scout. If you find one, just disband it.

St Jon · April 24, 2009, 14:59

Thanks again Vyeh, all seems to have worked perfectly.

vyeh · April 25, 2009, 01:31

Originally Posted by zsozso

Thanks vyeh again!
I don't want to complain and ask more work from you and another round of fix and replay, unless the same problem happened for other too, but I did notice a small glitch: the unity-droid former which used to be independent is now being supported by one of my cities (the one closest to it, Virgin Soil). If other players do not have this kind of problem, then I can live with it. Just raising the issue in case it happened for others too and they did not notice now only later deeper into to game.

That's an easy fix. After florin79c has opened the save and looked at the position, I can easily fix it.

Could everybody please tell me what needs to be fixed?

Feel free to PM me if you don't want to reveal something to the other players.

Regardless, when I fix zsozso's problem, I will again check the new positions against my notes of your old position.

St Jon · April 25, 2009, 08:13

My Former is Independent. I've played the Turn and sent on to Monty though. Did you need it before zsozso gets it?

All else is fine with my position - apart from Drones here, there and everywhere! LOL

vyeh · April 25, 2009, 08:56

Send Monty an email telling him not to play the turn..

vyeh · April 25, 2009, 10:10

A revised fix has been posted on the TTT.

St Jon should download it. Everybody will repeat a year (in St Jon's case, 2 years). Note the ' after WoP. Please keep the ' on until 2127. Make sure you send the ' version. And make sure you receive a ' version until 2127.

Zsozso should check in 2125 and 2126 that the unity former droid is independent. If it isn't, don't send the turn on.

St Jon · May 1, 2009, 10:03

Who has the Turn?

vyeh · May 1, 2009, 10:28

St Jon,

While you are waiting for the turn, you might be interested in reading Vel's strategy on playing Morgan.

St Jon · May 1, 2009, 10:49

Thanks Vyeh. That's I chose them as always seem to lose and cannot work out why. I don't think I've managed it at Transcend, even against the AI!

vyeh · May 1, 2009, 11:29

I think you will find it a useful article.

Vel starts with:

"Probably the most underrated faction of the original seven, Morgan is terrific if played correctly, but a novice will probably have to work a bit to get the faction humming. This is mainly due to the fact that Morgan’s playstyle is somewhat different from the others. If you’re playing Morgan, then you’ve got to make the most of your one big advantage, and that’s money."

zsozso · May 1, 2009, 13:38

Originally Posted by St Jon

Who has the Turn?

According to the TTT thread, you sent 2127 to Monty. So it should be his turn, I have never received 2127 from him. I'll try to send him an email and ask about it.