When Civ II Source Code Is Released... What Are Your Plans?

[DarkCloud]

- In order to better make an argument for the release of the civ II source code, it might be helpful if people could identify their plans for using the source code.
- When 2K Games releases the Civ II source code, what sort of coding do you intend to do (and what is your coding background) and why do you think it could :

1.) Improve the Game.
2.) Improve Sales for 2K games in the future (They're running a company here and need to point to potential profits. How do you propose to add value to 2K games?)

McMonkey, who intends to spearhead this project had this to say

For now I just need someone who can give me the basic technical advice that I lack. The worst situation would be that someone at 2K agrees in principle to release the code and asks me the practicalities of what we will do with it and where to make it available, because I have no idea and I will look like a fool! It would be good to have someone on hand to consult on technical issues/jargon so that our correspondence will be taken seriously.

Some of the things I am a bit sketchy on are:

What format does the code come in?
Where would it get released to?
Do 2K games put it on their website or do we need a host site?

Anybody know such stuff?

More Info in this thread: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...69#post5512169

I'm fairly certain Apolyton would host the source code if allowed, and if not poly, then CivFanatics.

~DC
Master of the List for Civ IV.

[McMonkey]

Thanks Dark Cloud

As I said in the other thread, its a bit of a conundrum whether to find programmers for a project that may never happen or to make sure we get the code and then find out there is nobody with the nous to make use of it.

I think what really need now is a couple of people who know how to make the changes in theory and can assist me in my correspondence. They do not necessarily need to be volunteers to actually do the work if the code is released. I am convinced that if we did get the code we could easily drum up enough interest to get things done, after all how many copies of CivII were sold? Lots, that's how many

I will be looking through the various threads to gather convincing argument as to why 2K would stand to gain as well as the die-hard fans. Hopefully I will be able to get a copy of the original letter which with any luck is lurking somewhere on Harry Tuttle's hard drive!

[Eivind IV]

If you want the letter you should wait for me to have a look around, it's been changed a lot since the original version.

[McMonkey]

Which could be some time away? It would certainly be better to get the letter you had, but if needs be I could write a new one. Do you remember the key points? I have a few ideas of my own but I guess you spent some refining everything.

[Eivind IV]

I found somehing in my email archive. I forwarded it to you. Knock yourself out!

[duke o' york]

Unfortunately I have no coding skills whatsoever, but would love to see what is possible with the source code.

If it is released then I'll buy Civ IV - that ought to boost 2K's profits.
Heck, if they give me a PS3, I'll buy Bioshock too.

[duke o' york]

In fact, speaking of profitability, why don't they make the code available for purchase by download? Would it be possible to tweak it somehow so that without having bought and downloaded the code, then it wouldn't be possible to run scenarios or patches released for the altered version of Civ 2?

This is the ideal model for profits, because they already have the code, and the costs to set up a page on their extant website for downloads would be minimal, so they're be making money for very little outlay, given that they already have patches for other games available on their site and so won't have to pay extra to maintain the servers.
However, I'd imagine that the majority of the downloads would happen in the first month or two, so they wouldn't need to keep the page up for that long (a year, max, I'd say), and would still gain the goodwill of the entire Civ 2 community.

[defrancoj]

To me, the best thing that we could do with the source code is figure out how to play with more than seven civs. With modern computers and gigamaps I would love to have a game with up to 32 civs and though I'm not a programmer I don't see why this would be infeasible. Having so many civs would ensure real borders between them and make the early game more exciting.

[DarkCloud]

That's an interesting idea duke- basically sell the source code to the community. They could set the price... say 10,000 USD, and then if the community really wants the code bad enough, they can pay.

[duke o' york]

Well I was hoping for a cheaper price than that, but think that buying it from them is definitely the way ahead - whether individually, as I was thinking, or collectively as you suggested.

[ColdWizard]

Improving the game: I'd like to see city improvements be un-hard-coded so that they could be modified and added through rules.txt. I have no idea if this would be practical to do (I can't code my way across a chessboard) but I have always wanted to be change the effects of some of the buildings.

As for 2k Games, they would get the goodwill of gamers. Good PR is always good for the bottom line; can you say Brand Loyalty? As the actions of certain companies (EA, Infogrames) make me less inclined to buy their games (or boycott them outright), positive actions would lead me to be more inclined in buying their games or at least being more aware of their games (Stardock). As my gaming budget is even smaller than usual, EA and Infogrames won't get a dime no matter what, but Stardock might. For me, Civ2 code release, particularly free release, would certainly buy 2K Games quite a bit of my loyalty. Pay to release would taste a lot like chiseling the consumer, in my mind (which is why I dislike EA and Infogrames, uncoincidentally).

[McMonkey]

Its been a busy week in RL but getting the petition and letter from Eivind was a real boost. I will take a good look at the arguments laid out and create an updated version of the letter over the next few days that may include some of these suggestions. I still need to get myself organized so that I can keep track of all the ideas, past and present. Keep the ideas coming and if anyone wants to be added to the petition then PM me your e-mail address

[McMonkey]

I have been reading through the letter today and I have decided to re-write it and make some changes. Some of the arguments were nonsensical, such as CivII not functioning with XP (it does!) and there not being many people interested in it anymore. I thought the whole point of the petition was to show that there IS still interest in the community else why bother!

I think the priority is to find someone at 2K games who is willing to enter a dialogue with us, find out where the code is and whether they would agree in principle to a release as the owners of Quake, Doom, Sim City, Monkey Island and Call to Power did.

I will use the petition as evidence of the interest in the game. I will use Brian Reynolds endorsement to add credibility and I will try and get a promise of a host site from Apolyton and Civ Fanatics.

I think we need to stress that this is intended to be open source and try to also find a host like Source Forge where we can attract programmers to assist us and lots of people can get involved (a computer savvy friend at work suggested this, I will need to look into it a little more).

We need to consider what license it should be released under. A GNU Lesser General Public License has been suggested as a good option and I will look into this in more detail.

I will try and get in contact with some of the other online groups that got the source codes released and see if they have any tips.

Basically I have a few ideas to follow up before I attempt to contact 2K

[duke o' york]

Good thinking - we need to turn up with a howitzer, and not a warrior.

[McMonkey]

Well put!

I still think 2K have nothing to lose by releasing the code, after all it is just gathering dust. The trick will be to get through to the relevant person and convince them that it is worth their time and effort to go through the legal and admin side of things. If we can have something already in place they could make use of then it cuts down on the work involved and hopefully makes it a more palatable proposition!

My work colleague thinks that Lucas Art recently released the code for Monkey Island which is intriguing. If anyone has any info on other source code releases then please let me know. It would be good to speak to someone who has succeeded and get some pointers!

[Peter Triggs]

I think that the first thing you should do is try to verify that the code exists.

IIRC, someone told Locutus that the code has been lost. You might PM Locutus and see what he remembers.

[Harry Tuttle]

Considering the petition was written in 2005 I think the XP part was very sensical. The same problem still exists, now with Vista. Just change it to Vista and add in the problems with the 32 to 64 bit conversion. My uncles new machine can't run Civ II because of it.

[McMonkey]

Really? I was not aware of any problems with running CivII with XP or Vista. I have run it ok on both OS.

Do you think it will be possible to fix these compatibility issues if we get hold of the code? If that is the reason for mentioning the problem then it makes sense to argue for its release so we can fix the bug.

In the version of the letter I read it says:

"1) Due to the recent release of Windows XP and the Operating System's penchant for not working well with old games, Civilization II has been increasingly troublesome to play. Major modifications to the root directory are required to run the game, causing problems for any Civ II/Windows XP user. As is evident, Windows XP has become the dominant Operating System for all new computers. Thus, Civilization II has become an obsolete game."

To me this does not read as if you are saying you want to fix the problem, but maybe I am misunderstanding the meaning. The way it reads for me it is saying that CivII is obsolete which is not the message we should be putting across!

Also in section 2 it says: "Very few people want to pay for a game that was originally released in 1996. Thus, Civilization II has become uninteresting to the vast majority of computer game consumers."

Although this is true and illustrates that releasing the code is not a threat to the Civilization series future sales I think it undermines our arguement in other areas. What is the point of collecting a petition with 600 names then saying the game us unpopular? I would try and make the point that there are still a lot of fans, even after all these years, who would benefit from the Source Code release and this would add to the good publicity/goodwill towards 2K games in the Civilization buying community as a whole.

I hope you don't take offense to any of my comments. You obviously put a lot of time and effort into putting the letter together and I will use elements of it for the updated version. I also realize it was written some time ago and needs updating. I just think that some of the points add no value to our argument, or contradict it, and could be left out. To begin with we just need to get our foot in the door and find someone who is willing to discuss the proposal. If we get that far we can really argue our case.

[McMonkey]

I think that the first thing you should do is try to verify that the code exists.

IIRC, someone told Locutus that the code has been lost. You might PM Locutus and see what he remembers.

I hope that is not the case Someone call Dr Jones and tell him to bring along his hat and whip!

I agree that establishing if the code still exists and if so where it resides is our #1 priority. If it really is lost this whole exercise is a waste of time! I find it hard to believe that the code for one of the best selling computer games of all times could just disappear, but then what do I know

Excuse my ignorance, but who is Locutus? Might he have contacts with anyone at 2K games?

[DarkCloud]

Er. Don't bother about PMing Locutus, he's been MIA at the site for the past 4 months. He'll probably be back sooner or later though, since he's a co-owner.

[DarkCloud]

? I seem to recall that Civ II ran fine under XP, but it had some problems with unpatched Vista.

[Harry Tuttle]

Really? I was not aware of any problems with running CivII with XP or Vista. I have run it ok on both OS.

Do you think it will be possible to fix these compatibility issues if we get hold of the code? If that is the reason for mentioning the problem then it makes sense to argue for its release so we can fix the bug.

Well, as for compatability, I haven't had any luck installing from a CD onto a Vista machine. Civ 2 is 32 bit and Vista runs as a 64 bit OS. I have quite a few old programs that I can't reinstall. Somehow I got Civ 2 to work from a backup, but then again my copy has been modded a few times over. So that's my reasoning. If I'm the exception then I guess the section is outdated.

Can we fix any compatability problems with Vista? I guess so, seeing as I can indeed run the program. As for XP, there were some problems with XP, but those were largely resolved.

To me this does not read as if you are saying you want to fix the problem, but maybe I am misunderstanding the meaning. The way it reads for me it is saying that CivII is obsolete which is not the message we should be putting across!

The idea behind calling Civ 2 obsolete was indeed to present it as a non-threat to the then-to-be-released Civ 4. Civ 3 was such a distaster that Civ 2 was still seen as a better game in many circles. A repeat of this disaster with Civ 4 and Civ 2 would be a competitor, of all things.

I think the obsolete argument has a lot of merit. A game company isn't going to release a game to open source if it can still sell the CD in stores. I think we need to show that the game can't make them a profit and is only useful as a gesture of goodwill.

Also in section 2 it says: "Very few people want to pay for a game that was originally released in 1996. Thus, Civilization II has become uninteresting to the vast majority of computer game consumers."

Although this is true and illustrates that releasing the code is not a threat to the Civilization series future sales I think it undermines our arguement in other areas. What is the point of collecting a petition with 600 names then saying the game us unpopular? I would try and make the point that there are still a lot of fans, even after all these years, who would benefit from the Source Code release and this would add to the good publicity/goodwill towards 2K games in the Civilization buying community as a whole.

The petition does not say that it's unpopular, just that it's uninteresting to the majority of consumers. Most people would rather buy a new computer game, not an old one. This ties into the whole idea of the game being obsolete and worthless as a sales item.

-----

I'm all for the release of the code through whatever means necessary, but remember that people signed the petition as is, after a lot of debate.

That said, If any changes you make work then great. If you can make some headway then more power to you. Good luck.

[McMonkey]

Thanks Harry. I see what you are saying about using the argument that the game is obsolete to illustrate that the release would not be in any way a negative thing for Take 2 Interactive's profits. What I may do is send an introductory letter or e-mail with a very clear message and include some of the more detailed points of our argument in a separate document alongside the petition. I think the main thing we need to do is find someone willing to talk to us at 2K. If we can get that far we can hopefully expand on our idea and convince them it is worth their time to help us out.

I still really need to read my way through all the posts in the threads here and at Civ Fanatics so I am aware of all the points that petitioners have made over the past few years. I think most people who signed the petition were just interested in getting the code, I am sure they would go along with any method for doing so as long as it is successful. I have noticed that at least one of the petitioners has shuffled off this mortal coil and is no doubt watching with amusement from the afterlife!

[McMonkey]

And talking about Civers who have left us I sadly found out this morning that another of our brothers has quit the game.

For those of you that knew Battosai I thought I ought to let you know about his death. I knew him only for only a relatively brief time but I was very fond of him and I will miss him a lot.

If you wish to leave a message of condolence then this thread is probably the best place: http://civforum.de/showthread.php?t=57997

[DarkCloud]

Now don't I feel silly, Locutus returned last week. About as soon as I posted this here, I saw him posting in the staff room. ops:

[McMonkey]

Not great news I'm afraid. Please take a look at Catfish's post #328 here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...67#post7722967

I will try and contact Jason Bergmann on the off chance that the Code has somehow turned up in the past couple of years but this does not bode well for the quest

[Locutus]

I think that the first thing you should do is try to verify that the code exists.

IIRC, someone told Locutus that the code has been lost. You might PM Locutus and see what he remembers.

Indeed, I have said on a number of occasions since this petition first started that we can say with virtual certainty that the Civ2 source code (sadly) doesn't exist anymore:

* Firaxis has on at least two (and I think even more) occasions said that they do not have the code (once by way of Soren Johnson on an early PolyCast interview, at least once more before that but I don't remember when/where);
* 2K confirmed a few years ago by way of Jason Bergman that they do not own any Civ1/2 assets (see McMonkey's post above);
* Brian Reynolds said that he does not have the code anymore (I think the link to that is also in the thread McMonkey links to);
* The Hunt Valley Microprose office (that headed up Civ2 development/publication) was close down in 2003, any assets associated with them will be long-lost by now.

The only possible way that the Civ2 source code could still exist would be in the form of some ancient backup by Atari somewhere, but Atari pretty much closed down all their game development as well a while back (and has now relaunched as a mobile brand IIUC). The chances of them still having a 15-year-old backup somewhere from an office they closed down 6 years ago is pretty much zero. They should have transferred all Civ-related assets to 2K when the latter purchased the franchise, but as stated in McMonkey's link that included nothing related to Civ2 (Atari made a statement along these lines in response to inquires about the Civ2 source code a few years back, but I don't know where to find this anymore).

Unfortunately keeping source code of old products is not typically something game companies are very consciously doing; once a project is done they simply move on to the next one, with the code for the old game maybe still lingering in a dusty corner of a harddrive somewhere, but once the hardware is replaced the contents of the drives is often lost. For this stuff to survive in the long run it's really up to individual proud and diligent programmers to keep copies in their personal archives, which is invariably where the source code that you see being released for certain old games comes from (Doom, SimCity, Mech Commander, etc -- I believe this was true for CtP2 as well).

For those still wanting to fix up Civ2, by now I think your best bet is to just recreate it from scratch (or better yet, make a fork of FreeCiv, they've already done 80% of the work): Civ2 is an ancient game that was basically put together by one guy (Brian Reynolds) in about a year's time -- two or three modern programmers shouldn't have too much trouble recreating the exact identical gameplay in a reasonable time frame (in hindsight, if someone had started on such a thing when this petition was first posted it could probably have been completed twice or thrice over by now). With the source code from things like FreeCiv, CtP2 and Civ4 providing examples for specific algorithms it really shouldn't be too hard. It wouldn't even really be a first: I'm pretty sure this was already done once for a mobile port of Civ1 (and mobile games tend to be really low-budget projects with only 1 or 2 programmers and no more than a year of dev time).

Mind you, technically such a thing could get you in legal trouble but I seriously doubt 2K would go after a project like that -- but if you want to be sure you could ask their permission first.

[McMonkey]

Thanks for the reply Locutus. I think that pretty much wraps up the effort (not that I actually did very much) from my point of view. It was a nice dream while it lasted It was always a longshot and now at least we know better than to waste any more time chasing a ghost. Its a shame that better care was not taken of such a hallowed relic but its not the end of the world. I will continue to produce scenarios for my own amusement and the few diehards who keep the CivII candle burning

I will take a look at FreeCiv and see what I can do to help, though my programing skills are extremely basic. Thanks again for putting us straight Locutus!

[DarkCloud]

Oh well. A pity, then.

http://c-evo.org/

Is another very good civ clone.

~DC.

[Harry Tuttle]

C-evo is alright, but I think Freeciv is the game to look at. Only problem is that the programmers never quite got the idea for an event language. The Civ2 event language is one of the pillars to the longevity of Civ2. The Scenario League would not be here today without it.