The future of PC gaming - 2009 edition

[DrSpike]

There's several console MMOs in development.

There's some that already exist - e.g. FFXI.

[Asher]

As I said, you either lied/exaggerated, or don't know anything about PC gaming. I leave it to you to tell me which.

You're being a ****ing douchebag, snoopy. World of Goo did slip my mind because I primarily think of it as a WiiWare title, the only reason I'd ever heard of it on the PC is because of news stories month ago about its astronomical PIRACY RATE.

So kindly kiss my ass and apologize, or just **** off.

I did not exaggerate, I did not lie, and I very clearly worded it precisely such that I was not making sweeping universal statements like "there are none", but that I couldn't recall any, which is true. The fact that you've only been able to cite the 1 speaks volumes.

Now what I think is going on here is you misread my statement and now you're trying to save face by still forcing the idea I somehow lied or exaggerated by saying:

I can't remember the last time there was a genuinely good creative indy game on the PC, but there's been many on XBLA/XNA.

So you can either apologize for misrepresenting my position (your assertion that I said there were "none"), or you can go join Nikolai and Ben Kenobi in the corner for an intellectual time-out.

[DrSpike]

As I said, you either lied/exaggerated, or don't know anything about PC gaming. I leave it to you to tell me which.

Can we have a poll? Preferably with multiple choices enabled.

[snoopy369]

My suggestion is simply that in order to 'not remember' one of the biggest indie PC games of, well, recent memory, so big as to actually make significant RETAIL sales, shows you either don't know anything about the topic, or you lied/exaggerated to make a point. Again, I leave it to you to tell us which You seem to be indicating the former, which is fine.

BTW, Sins of the Solar Empire probably qualifies as a successful indie game on the PC, depending on your definition of 'indie'. Stardock published it, and it had a budget of <$1m, so I'd say it qualifies... and it certainly was a success both critically and in sales (again, one of few indie games to actually do reasonably well on retail shelves and not solely by download). 500,000 PC sales, mostly at retail, and 88% at metacritic, plus PC GOTY from IGN, indicate it was something of a success as well

[Asher]

I don't even know what to say to you.

What is most stupid, the fact that you think games with a relatively large budget made by corporations with long-term publisher support as an "indy game", or the fact that you think because I didn't instantly remember the most popular game on WiiWare was also released on the PC I must "not know anything". FWIW, World of Goo won tons of awards for the Wii and not too many for the PC. It is predominately recognized as a Wii title to most people, it even won Wii game of the year last year at IGN. It's not completely unheard of to associate World of Goo with the Wii given its sales and awards on the Wii.

You know what is by far the most stupid thing, though? The fact that this discussion started with you stating I exaggerated by saying that I "can't remember" something and then yourself claiming I "must not know anything", a clear exaggeration.

So, as a recap because I'm tired of discussing this with you snoopy because it's clear you must have some kind of brain damage:
- I made a comment specifically stating that "I can't remember" something, you misread that as me saying "There is nothing".
- You replied to my comment about me supposedly exaggerating with a comment suggesting I "don't know anything". That's a retarded exaggeration, isn't it?

Here's a tip for you, snoopy: read carefully next time. And then recognize when you make a simple ****ing mistake, rather than digging this hole and setting up camp inside.

[Asher]

BTW, speaking of "not knowing anything":

BTW, Sins of the Solar Empire probably qualifies as a successful indie game on the PC, depending on your definition of 'indie'. Stardock published it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_video_game_development

Independent video game development is the process of creating video games without the financial support of a video game publisher.

Braid is an indy game. 100% of the games developed on XNA are indy games.

Sins was not an indy game, by any competent definition.



There's a reason you can't think of any good recent indy PC games aside from World of Goo, and that's because the point I was making was on the money. There's no point to this whole discussion we're having aside from illuminating your issues with reading comprehension and a basic lack of understanding of the discussion's terminology.

[El_Cid]

yawn......

onto more interesting things, i need to give a warning about the Dyson game i linked to.
It sounded very interesting but makes a very 'indie' mistake. upon running the installer it requires/insists on connecting to the internet to download NET 2.2(or whatever number it was). Now i have already the newest version of the .net stuff installed on my gaming non-internet connected rig, so i got stuck in a loop unable to install the game because it insisted it tried to download the damn software i didnt need.

An important lesson - let the user decide, give a little optional box like 'I will do it later myself' or 'dont need it' etc, rather than just fail.

As it is a promising indie effort will get overlooked as it just wont install on my rig. a shame.

Still Osmos gets some big thumbs up - a very simple concept just done very well, nice smooth simple graphics, great sound, a very good effort i will most likely buy the full version of

[Asher]

Now you see why indy gaming is best on the consoles.

[Unimatrix11]

Yeah, i dunno... anything under 1M$ is an indie-game? I wouldnt quite agree with that definition either... To me (and i am by no means an expert), indie games are made by amateurs - people who dont get paid at all (at least mostly), prior to release. Like if i with a bunch of buddies would sit down and make a game in our spare time.

Actually, i once did that - a board game though, which i doubt is release-able (a massive 7-grognards-WW2-game, a match taking something like 50 hours or so), despite the fact, that (almost) all players enjoyed it immensely in our 7 test matches, and that we occasionally talk about one or the other of these matches still - after almost a decade...

[Asher]

Yep. That definition is on the money.

[snoopy369]

BTW, speaking of "not knowing anything":

BTW, Sins of the Solar Empire probably qualifies as a successful indie game on the PC, depending on your definition of 'indie'. Stardock published it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_video_game_development

Independent video game development is the process of creating video games without the financial support of a video game publisher.

Braid is an indy game. 100% of the games developed on XNA are indy games.

Sins was not an indy game, by any competent definition.



There's a reason you can't think of any good recent indy PC games aside from World of Goo, and that's because the point I was making was on the money. There's no point to this whole discussion we're having aside from illuminating your issues with reading comprehension and a basic lack of understanding of the discussion's terminology.

I know that technically indie games mean a developer with no direct publisher support ... but you have some pretty large developers with huge budgets, so I'm not sure that's really a satisfactory definition for what you are intending to capture with 'indie gaming'. To me it's more of a budget issue - big budget versus small budget versus micro budget; SotSE is probably 'small budget' but not micro budget. That's why I said 'maybe'. It is, however, also more in the line of the type of game El Cid is interested in, in the sense that it was small budget, and not developed BY a publisher (with less/none of the publisher-imposed limits that hurts big games like, say, Civ4).

It's too bad you aren't capable of having a civil discussion about things, or I'd go into more detail ... but it would just be wasted typing, and my fingers are tired.

I can't think of any more indie PC games because I don't play indie PC games in general... I make no claim to have any expertise in the matter.

[Asher]

It's too bad you aren't capable of having a civil discussion about things, or I'd go into more detail ... but it would just be wasted typing, and my fingers are tired.

It would be wasted because you are not talking about indie games. You are talking about small-budget games. They are not the same thing. What do you think "indie" means? It means independent. What are they independent from if they are tied to a publisher who is being their sugardaddy?

I'm more than capable of having a civil discussion on this, but that'd require you to understand the basic terminology pertaining to the discussion in addition to reading what I write, rather than misreading it and claiming I'm saying something I'm not.

[Nikolai]

I agree on indie gaming being about being independent. But as far as I've understood, Xbox Live "indie" devs are under a strict regime. I understand those games as indie, but OTOH it doesn't fit that definition.

[Asher]

I agree on indie gaming being about being independent. But as far as I've understood, Xbox Live "indie" devs are under a strict regime. I understand those games as indie, but OTOH it doesn't fit that definition.

No, Nikolai, you do not understand.

For starters, "Xbox Live" is not "Xbox Live Arcade" is not "XNA".

XNA is the epitome of indy development. Look into it before you continue down this path...

[Grandpa Troll]

Asher

Is Indie equilavelent for India or Indian games as in the country of India?
I trust you way more than most here on the tech side plus your from Canada and well, no guille comes out of the land of Anne Murray and the MacKenzie Brothers