The future of PC gaming - 2009 edition

[Asher]

Indie just means Independent.

[Nikolai]

No, Nikolai, you do not understand.

For starters, "Xbox Live" is not "Xbox Live Arcade" is not "XNA".

XNA is the epitome of indy development. Look into it before you continue down this path...

So now you suddenly don't think the Xbox360 indie games are indie? There are lots of games on the Xbox360 that are considered so, and I though you did too. I have no idea what the difference is between those three names, except I though Live Arcade was the equvalent of Wii's VC, and the last one I haven't even heard of. But that does not really matter. The question here is what is to be considered an indie game, and the 360 has a good market place for such games. But as I said, it seems some of the independence of the indie devs has to be sacrificed on the altar of MS control of the market place. Which might not be a bad idea, as long as the creativity isn't being limited. Some degree of standardization is a good thing.

[snoopy369]

It would be wasted because you are not talking about indie games. You are talking about small-budget games. They are not the same thing. What do you think "indie" means? It means independent. What are they independent from if they are tied to a publisher who is being their sugardaddy?

I'm more than capable of having a civil discussion on this, but that'd require you to understand the basic terminology pertaining to the discussion in addition to reading what I write, rather than misreading it and claiming I'm saying something I'm not.

I put out SotSE as an example of a game he might enjoy in a similar fashion, specifically with a note that it doesn't necessarily qualify as Indie. World of Goo is the only counterexample I need for your point... I intended to draw a wider discussion about lower budget games in general.

Out of curiosity, since this is an area I know little, what defines XNA from the point of view of someone sitting at an x-box? I know how to get to XBLA, but is XNA a subset of games on XBLA or is it an entirely different screen?

[Asher]

So now you suddenly don't think the Xbox360 indie games are indie?

What the ****?

I have no idea what the difference is between those three names, except I though Live Arcade was the equvalent of Wii's VC, and the last one I haven't even heard of. But that does not really matter.

What the ****?

How does it not matter? If you knew what they were you'd know precisely why it does matter!

For **** sakes, Nikolai.

Brief summary since you can't figure out how to use google:
Xbox Live is the general connectivity service.
Xbox Live Arcade is a service to download "small" games, commercial or indy. It's not very cheap to make games on this service, the licenses are quite expensive ($10K+) that precludes most indy developers (but does not ban indy development).
XNA is a service where people can, FOR FREE, download the XNA Framework and develop games very easily using a lot of existing FREE functionality. If they want to publish it, for a $99/year subscription the developers can post their games onto the "Xbox Live Community Games" marketplace where anyone with an Xbox 360 can try the demo and purchase their game. These are, by definition, indie games. They're made by people who aren't getting paid for development, but they can sell their products using Xbox Live as a distribution mechanism. This is where there's huge activity in terms of indy game development, because XNA is a very awesome framework to make code in without having to put excessive amounts of time to do basic things. There's tons of out of the box features to plug into your game, there's a vibrant online community for assistance, etc.

There's a huge difference between Xbox Live Arcade (which has guidelines) and XNA/Xbox Live Community Games (which lets users post whatever they want). XNA is really all about indie game development, it's why it's there. It's where the indie gaming momentum is also.

As a sidenote: if you develop for XNA, it'll not only play on the Xbox 360 but it'll play on PCs as well without modifying your code. If you only use 2D functionality, it'll also play on Zunes.

[Asher]

I put out SotSE as an example of a game he might enjoy in a similar fashion, specifically with a note that it doesn't necessarily qualify as Indie. World of Goo is the only counterexample I need for your point... I intended to draw a wider discussion about lower budget games in general.

Out of curiosity, since this is an area I know little, what defines XNA from the point of view of someone sitting at an x-box? I know how to get to XBLA, but is XNA a subset of games on XBLA or is it an entirely different screen?

It's a different screen.

XNA games are "Xbox Live Community Games" on the 360.

http://creators.xna.com/en-us/XboxLIVECommunityGames

You’ve played Xbox 360 games with the millions of gamers on Xbox LIVE. You’ve chatted, shared, and dominated in games of all kinds. But what if those millions could be playing your game?

Better still – what if you were getting paid for it?

Starting holiday 2008, Xbox LIVE Community Games is your ticket to fame – and possibly fortune as millions of Xbox LIVE users now have the opportunity to view, buy, and play games that you create.

How it Works
The setup? Simple. The payments? Cash.

As a Premium member in the XNA Creators Club, you’ll be able to submit any complete Xbox 360 game you’ve created in XNA Game Studio to the Creators Club community at http://creators.xna.com, for peer review. Other Premium Creators will check to make sure your game is safe to play. If it is, you’ll set a price point – between 200 and 800 Points – that people will pay to download your game.

Once the game is reviewed and the price point set, you’re done. The game is listed on Xbox LIVE Marketplace, and you’ll get an electronic payment every quarter, for up to 70% of the game’s total revenue in your own currency. Depending on your game’s success, you may even have your game advertised on Xbox 360 and other Microsoft online properties.

Just imagine - your game in the hands of millions of Xbox 360 gamers around the world: that’s the power of Community Games.

How to Get Started

While the official launch of Xbox LIVE Community Games won’t be until later this year, you can start working on that great game right now with XNA Game Studio and the XNA Creators Club Online community!

First, download XNA Game Studio, the free game development tool from Microsoft. It’s free and works with Visual Studio or Visual C# Express Edition. If you’ve never made a game before, the XNA Creators Club website has tons of samples, tutorials, even whole video guides to game creation. Jump right in and start coding your dream game!

Next, join the XNA Creator’s Club at http://creators.xna.com. It’s a community of game creators just like you. If you’re going to develop games for Xbox 360 and want to sell your game on Xbox LIVE Community Games, you’ll need a Premium membership. It’s just $99 per year or $49 for four months.

Finally, submit your finished game to the XNA Creators Club and watch the money roll in!

Here's the currently available Xbox Live Community Games:

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/community/default.htm

Some of them are really good -- like Carneyvale Showcase.

[Nikolai]

As I said, it does not matter. What we're discussing here is 1) what is the definition of indie games and 2) does this definition fit the games called indie on Xbox360.

I say I define indie games as games made by independent developers. These do not usually have much money, but I don't see that as an absolute requirement. There are many games published on 360's market. What part of the market is as I see it irrelevant. What is relevant is that as I've understood it, MS has set some very strict rules and limitations on the games the indie devs can publish on their platform. Which is much the same on Wii too and I guess on PS3, if Sony has a similar thing there. That I do not know. If those limitations are not there, well, then the debate is settled, isn't it? I've read a few discussions and a couple articles on how indie devs don't like the terms MS give for allowing the publishing of their games. If that info is wrong, feel free to say so, but please don't scold me for taking part in the discussion.

[Asher]

As I said, it does not matter. What we're discussing here is 1) what is the definition of indie games and 2) does this definition fit the games called indie on Xbox360.

What the flying **** is wrong with you, boy...

What is relevant is that as I've understood it, MS has set some very strict rules and limitations on the games the indie devs can publish on their platform.

If you actually read my ****ing post, you would see why this is utter nonsense.

There is no Microsoft overlord for content on XNA/Xbox Live Community Games. As I have told you many times now, do some basic research before wasting more of our time.

If that info is wrong, feel free to say so, but please don't scold me for taking part in the discussion.

I have already told you several times why this is wrong, but you continue to spam on about it. You deserve a scolding.

[Nikolai]

I've got one post with information of this, the one above my last one. The post you're quoting now was me telling you what I talked about. Funny, this reading comprehension you always talk of doesn't seem to apply to you... As for google... You know, this forum is used for discissions, talking, such things. Google isn't a magical thing that makes talk and discussions redundant. It helps in a discission, it isn't a substiture for discussion. And then we have this funny thing: In a discission one has the chance to discuss, exchange ideas and thoughts. Sometimes people might disagree and tell the others. Then the others can say "aha. now I see." or "well, yeah, but then you have this other thing...". And voila! The forum shows it's true use!

[Asher]

You continue to type a lot without contributing anything to a discussion. A talent you have, to be sure.

15 minutes before you replied, I explicitly illustrated the differences between Xbox Live, Xbox Live Arcade, and Xbox Live Community Games. I explicitly mentioned Community Games has no guidelines, while Xbox Live Arcade did. You decided to reply to that post talking about how Microsoft imposes guidelines on all games on the Xbox, which is not only wrong it showed you didn't or couldn't read my post you replied to.

[Nikolai]

Show me the post I supposedly replied to 15 minutes before, please. I can't remember replying to any post by you, and certainly no post with this content.

And then perhaps we could continue this discussion without name calling and unnecessary anger. It would help in the future if you could remember what a discussion is. That is, not a one way "I hate you because you isn't me, you moron" discussion, but a fruitful and civil discussion. It seems like you as usual don't read my posts very thoroughly, while at the same time screaming about me not reading yours and generally being dumb. Tip of the day: breathe.

[Nikolai]

If you're referring to post #139 in this thread btw, I'd like to ask you to reread my posts.

[Asher]

My ****ing GOD, why do you inflict this pain on me?

Me in Post 139 @ 3:08pm EST:

There's a huge difference between Xbox Live Arcade (which has guidelines) and XNA/Xbox Live Community Games (which lets users post whatever they want).

You in Post 141 @ 3:23pm EST:

MS has set some very strict rules and limitations on the games the indie devs can publish on their platform.

[Blaupanzer]

Take a breath, Asher. You are not under attack or being knocked. Nikolai and Snoop have been trying to have a conversation with you. They seem to respect your level of knowledge enough to stick with the thread despite some quite rude output from you. Now Snoop did rise to the occasion so I'll let you two work it out. But for the rest of us, we enjoy expository sentences on the subject much more than meaningless rudeness. Try that.

[Nikolai]

Great Asher, you both fail to read my posts properly and you manage to quote me wrongly.

[Asher]

Great Asher, you both fail to read my posts properly and you manage to quote me wrongly.

I copied and pasted directly what you wrote. What you wrote 15 minutes after my post demonstrates you completely did not understand what my post said.

And now you are accusing me of failing to read YOUR posts properly and quoting you wrongly? CTRL-C/CTRL-V doesn't lie...