Ship of the Line and Man-o-War

[smak]

You said wagon trains are better than using caravels to trade with indians. I dont see how that can be, since a caravel can move 50% faster and can go across water to other islands and continents. Not to mention the fact that you can also go to europe with a caravel and transport troops. Wagon trains are cheaper to build than caravels, but why would you build a caravel or a wagon train when you can make more important things in your city and just buy caravel for a few hundred gold.

You said frigates and ship of line are useless because they cannot transport things, but you forget that they can bombard settlements. You can either bombard the settlement to 0% defense and then attack from sea or land without exposing your cannon and army to counterattacks as you waste time bombarding with cannon. They can also destroy any transport ship, pirate included.

You also said if you can buy a frigate why not save 2k more gold to buy ship of line, and the reason you never want to buy ship of line first is because most games the indians will run out of gold before you can afford a ship of the line. But if you can trade for all of one indians gold while buying their resources for a profit as well you can most times afford a frigate if you have peter. Every turn you waste refining materials or looking for additional indians is a turn wasted where you could already have a frigate out there destroying the enemy ships. Its all about speed, if you can lock down the enemy shipping early on they will not be able to recover before you can destroy their cities. You also have to consider that the frigate has more movement than ship of the line and the ship of the line only has two advantages in the game, one is to fight frigates and the other is a slightly higher bombard damage. And dont even say you need ship of line to fight man of wars because privateers are more effective at killing them en mass. And another reason to not blow 4500 gold on ship of line is because you need to have defenses for your city as well, if you neglect to put at least a soldier or two in your city then the natives will attack you. In the best circumstances you want to get the indians gold, buy a frigate, get a cannon from king, and turn a soldier into a dragoon so you can start attacking natives at the same time you start sinking enemy ships.

I also disagree with your plans to buy galleons, its a total waste unless you plan to attack from sea with your army. And even then caravels or a mix of caravels and merchantmen are cheaper to get for that. It is much better to ship the treasures back at 50% than to wait until you can buy or build a galleon. Galleons are slow piles of crap.

[PrinceMyshkin]

ok

[Dale]

Originally posted by smak
I also disagree with your plans to buy galleons, its a total waste unless you plan to attack from sea with your army. And even then caravels or a mix of caravels and merchantmen are cheaper to get for that. It is much better to ship the treasures back at 50% than to wait until you can buy or build a galleon. Galleons are slow piles of crap.

This is one of the most insane comments I've heard about galleons! To consider NOT buying one is sure fire loss of the lead in rev games!

I can consistently pop one treasure per 5 turns (it can be quicker, but we'll be fair) for the first 100 turns. If each treasure averages 1000 gold (some down to 500 some up to 1500) then that means 20,000 gold. You consider it a "total waste" to build a galleon and will sacrifice 10,000 gold because you don't want to spend the inital 3000 (less with Minuit)? That's 5 soldiers! And with those 5 soldiers you can wipe out the Aztecs netting another ~15 treasures averaging 1500 (some down to 1000 some up to 2500) meaning another 22,500 gold.

So with the initial investment of 3000 for the galleon, and 10,000 for 5 soldiers to wipe out the Aztecs, you profit ~32,500 gold.

If you were to do this relying on the 50% King's transport (assuming you never get a tax increase which in itself is crazy talk) then you only profit 11,250 gold.

So you will only receive 35% of the profit I do. NOT building a galleon is insane!

[Dale]

Let's talk ship stats:

Caravel
30 Tools
100 Hammers
4 Movement
Cargo 2
Strength 3
Price 1000
Europe price increase 0

Merchantman
60 Tools
200 Hammers
4 Movement
Cargo 4
Strength 4
Price 2000
Europe price increase 0

Galleon
90 Tools (down from 100)
300 Hammers
3 Movement
Cargo 6
Strength 5
Price 3000
Europe price increase 0

Privateer
90 Tools (up from 60)
300 Hammers (up from 200)
100 guns
4 Movement
Cargo 2
Strength 5
Price 3500 (up from 3000)
Europe price increase 500 (down from 600)

Frigate
90 Tools (down from 200)
320 Hammers (up from 300)
160 guns (down from 200)
5 Movement
Cargo 0
Strength 8
Price 4000 (down from 5000)
Europe price increase 1000

Ship of the Line
130 Tools (down from 300)
480 Hammers (up from 400)
240 Guns (down from 300)
5 Movement
Cargo 0
Strength 12 (up from 8)
Price 6000 (down from 8000)
Europe price increase 1500

Man o War
170 Tools (down from 300)
640 Hammers (up from 400)
320 Guns (up from 300)
5 Movement (up from 4)
Cargo 6 (up from 4)
Strength 16 (up from 12)
Price NA
Europe price increase NA

These are the changes I propose based on the ship's main statistic. For trade ships I have adjusted cost based on cargo bay size. For military ships (and privateer) the costs are adjusted based on strength.

Galleon: the change brings the cost in line with the other ships. It's still one move slower, but can move treasures and can defend against privateers at 50-50.

Privateer: the changes bring the ship in line with galleon. In all respects it should be like a galleon but can attack (20 guns per strength point). Can move 1 quicker than a galleon, but only 1/3 the cargo bays of a galleon. I upped the price of a privateer by 500 to reflect that it's essentially a galleon with guns.

Frigate: Whilst less expensive in terms of tools and guns, it's more expensive in hammers. Frigates were small warships fast built and inexpensive. Cost has been reduced in line with the lower resource requirements. I've tried to make the cost reflective of the increased yield needs over a privateer.

Ship of the Line: Tools and gun costs have also dropped with hammers rising. I've also upped the strength to signify the difference between a standard frigate of 26 guns, and a standard SoL of 76 guns. Cost has been reduced in line with the lower resource requirements. I've tried to make the cost reflective of the increased yield needs over a frigate.

Man of War: I've raised everything except tools cost. Resource costs are in relation to the other military ships. I've upped move from 4 to 5 purely to help the King land his troops. A frigate and SoL can still keep up or catch a MoW, but a privateer no longer can. I've also upped the cargo bay from 4 to 6. MoW's could carry up to 800 men (SoL's usually only around 400). I've also upped strength to 16 to indentify the fact MoW's were triple deckers sporting up to 120 guns. Until ironclads they were down and out the rulers of the seas. Costs are irrelevant for a MoW.

So the change in stats should help to decrease the costs of building a navy to combat MoW's. SoL's are now more important for defeating the King's navy, but easier to obtain.

EDIT: added price details and comments

[smak]

I guess i only see the game from a multiplayer perspective. Since the game is trivial in single player on any settings or difficulty. And in multiplayer even on huge maps with 4 players (the average number) everyone scouts to find their enemies. So you should average 25% of the treasures. But most of the time you are forced to attack indians either because an enemy player payed them to kill you or because you need the combat experience before you can take on the enemy players army. So you really arent even going to gather 25% of the treasures. I have also noticed that 99% of multiplayer games are set to quick speed, and at that speed the treasures seem to have less than 30% of the treasure you would find on a marathon game. When you do the math you will find out that you are getting less than 10% of the treasure than you would gather on a single player marathon game.

You also assume that you need a galleon to field an army capable of destroying the aztecs. You do not, you only need 2 units to destroy every indian on the planet.

You also assume that you will find many aztec cities, or that you will even have a choice as to what indian tribe you will be able to attack. In multiplayer you dont have the option of sending your army across the globe looking for just aztecs to fight, you need to expand outward from your core city, or expand into a nearby enemies territory.

And that does not justify wasting the gold on a galleon.

I dont care if you created your own mod to the game, i can tell you that the age of discovery 2 mod will not run in multiplayer on gamespy or direct ip connect. So if you are competing for the free computer firaxis is giving away i would get back to work on multiplayer bugs.

Revolutionary single player is a joke, the ai will dock his navy in indian settlements and wait for you to destroy them all with one unit. I have won on revulotionary in under 30 turns this way.

[PrinceMyshkin]

I cannot agree more. I would be more than happy to see privateer rushes not possible.

Point which may need adjustment.

1. Vanilla Rate of power, 2. Suggested Rate of power (with 50% sentiment).

1. MoW:SoL = 12:8 = 3:2, 60% for MoW to win.
2. MoW:SoL = 16:12 = 4:3, 57% for MoW to win.

1. Vanilla Rate of power, 2. Suggested Rate of power (with 100% sentiment)

1. MoW:SoL = 12:8+4 = 1:1, 50% for MoW to win.
2. MoW:SoL = 16:12+6 = 8:9, 47% for MoW to win.

1. Vanilla Rate of power, 2. Suggested Rate of power Suggested Rate of power (with Simon Bolivar 100% sentiment).

1. MoW:SoL = 12:8+8 = 3:4, 43% for MoW to win.
2. MoW:SoL = 16:12+12 = 4:6, 40% for MoW to win.

It is slightly harder for SoL to win with no rebel sentiment, but easier with rebel sentiment.

On the other side SoL is cheaper, but MoW can transport more, and move faster than before.

Very pleased with the suggested changes.

MoW may need a slight boost, but if we increase it further, while keeping SoL the same it may become overpowered. If we increase both, both SoL and MoW willl become way overpowered comparing to all the rest.

What about this suggestion?

1. Vanilla Rate of power, 2. Suggested Rate of power (with 50% sentiment).

1. MoW:SoL = 12:8 = 3:2, 60% for MoW to win.
2. MoW:SoL = 15:10 = 3:2, 60% for MoW to win.

1. Vanilla Rate of power, 2. Suggested Rate of power (with 100% sentiment)

1. MoW:SoL = 12:8+4 = 1:1, 50% for MoW to win.
2. MoW:SoL = 15:10+5 = 1:1, 50% for MoW to win.

1. Vanilla Rate of power, 2. Suggested Rate of power Suggested Rate of power (with Simon Bolivar 100% sentiment).

1. MoW:SoL = 12:8+8 = 3:4, 43% for MoW to win.
2. MoW:SoL = 15:10+10 = 4:6, 43% for MoW to win.

This one looks more consistant with vanilla rates. Hence, I would suggest it, and will work better with unit upgrades in my opinion.

Another combo, which could work is 18:12.

BTW there is nothing more annoying than having a cap limit of 300 guns, 300 tools while SoL requirements had been 300 guns, 300 tools... Makes constant micromanagement a neccessity.

[Dale]

Originally posted by smak
I guess i only see the game from a multiplayer perspective. Since the game is trivial in single player on any settings or difficulty. And in multiplayer even on huge maps with 4 players (the average number) everyone scouts to find their enemies. So you should average 25% of the treasures. But most of the time you are forced to attack indians either because an enemy player payed them to kill you or because you need the combat experience before you can take on the enemy players army. So you really arent even going to gather 25% of the treasures. I have also noticed that 99% of multiplayer games are set to quick speed, and at that speed the treasures seem to have less than 30% of the treasure you would find on a marathon game. When you do the math you will find out that you are getting less than 10% of the treasure than you would gather on a single player marathon game.

You also assume that you need a galleon to field an army capable of destroying the aztecs. You do not, you only need 2 units to destroy every indian on the planet.

You also assume that you will find many aztec cities, or that you will even have a choice as to what indian tribe you will be able to attack. In multiplayer you dont have the option of sending your army across the globe looking for just aztecs to fight, you need to expand outward from your core city, or expand into a nearby enemies territory.

And that does not justify wasting the gold on a galleon.

I dont care if you created your own mod to the game, i can tell you that the age of discovery 2 mod will not run in multiplayer on gamespy or direct ip connect. So if you are competing for the free computer firaxis is giving away i would get back to work on multiplayer bugs.

Revolutionary single player is a joke, the ai will dock his navy in indian settlements and wait for you to destroy them all with one unit. I have won on revulotionary in under 30 turns this way.

Yes, MP is a totally different kettle of fish. And one I don't dabble in.

I exclusively play in SP on huge maps, so locating the Aztecs, and then getting 15 Aztec tribes is the norm.

And with my mods, the AI plays a lot better than vanilla. You may have won in 30 turns in vanilla, but I bet you used every known exploit to get it. That's not playing the game, that's gaming you play.

BTW, you should know that as an Aussie I can't enter the mod contest. Oh, and AoD2 does run on LAN (no mods run on GameSpy so that's pointless bringing that up). That's how I test it here.

[Dale]

Originally posted by PrinceMyshkin
Very pleased with the suggested changes.

Thanks. Been thinking on them for a while now.

BTW there is nothing more annoying than having a cap limit of 300 guns, 300 tools while SoL requirements had been 300 guns, 300 tools... Makes constant micromanagement a neccessity.

This annoys the absolute craps outa me!

PS: Dale, you have also upped SoL movement to 8. I pressume this may not have been intentional. Am, I right? I think 5 is fine.

PS: MoW strength was 12 before not 16.

Woops! And woops!

[PrinceMyshkin]

Dale updated my calculations, have a look above again please. Sorry! :-P

We may have a small problem. The rates with upgrades and sentiment may cause problems.

What do you think of my suggestion?

[Dale]

So you're suggesting lowering SoL and MoW strength to 10 & 15 respectively? Would also have to drop gun requirements to 200 & 300 respectively to match the strength drop.

I like that change. Makes SoL buildable in a warehouse colony, and MoW (King controled) in a warehouse expansion colony.

Previously a SoL and MoW were only buildable in warehouse expansion colonies (or overflowed colonies).

Anyone else care to comment?

[PrinceMyshkin]

Yes.

Or make it 18:12 so the rates will still be the same.

I am worried with 18:12 frigates are going to get complitely owned with chances 18:+9:8 vs MoW and 12+6:8 vs SoL.

Yes, anyone else to give us feedback?

Will probably write you again after 10 days! Keep up the good work guys! Merry Xmas!

[Dale]

Yeah, 18:12 is too much. Makes MoW's untouchable for frigates (making John Paul Jones a completely useless late game FF).

I've posted the proposal at CFC too so feedback will come from there too.

[PrinceMyshkin]

John Paul utterly sucks!!! The guy who provides three industrial servants is way better, at least they can become 3 dragoons one day! Frigate is good pooh considering the bells! Can't he give a free promotion to all naval units (Navigation I, Combat I, or at least a 10% chance to avoid loss or something whatever!)? He was an admiral after all right? :P

Saying that on my last game (vanilla), going DoI, and immediately after got John Paul. I never got the frigate. Could this be a bug, unit gets lost in europe?

What happens with John Paul in AoD II? I know in AoD II, units in Europe or in their way to or from Europe get lost.

Frigate waits in Europe or elsewhere? If it's europe, bye bye frigate...

BTW Dale aren't you an Aussie? What about a map for the colonization of Australlia. People tend to forget the down-under part of the world.

I bet it was also colonization happening there as well, or was it europeans appearing out of nowhere in the matter anti-matter fashion Hernann talked about before...

What about adding a leader to all factions, who would reflect to Australlian continent nations?

eg. William Dampier? Jeez couldn't he have a dumper name? Even better Captain James Cook!

So the Australlian flag appeas and they have Australlian city names! :P

I mean if you ever have the time...

[Cornhog]

I think Ships of the Line are way too powerful at the moment. The fact that the colonies can fight toe-to-toe with the King's Man-of-Wars isn't right. You can damn near keep the king from landing troops. You really don't give up much in that fight -- especially if you have rebel sentiment built up.

If I were to balance it, I would remove the colonies' ability to build ships of the line. Then I would change the man-of-war's bonus from +50% frigates to +50% when attacking frigates. That way you could fight the king's navy with frigates if you were smart and lucky, but you couldn't park your navy off shore and essentially prevent the king from landing.

Your fixing of the stats is fine, but the problem to me seems to be that you can easily prevent the king from ever taking a single city. That should be one hell of an accomplishment. If the king could land unfettered, but frigates could counterattack, that would fix it in my mind. Simpler solution than reworking all the stats too

[Dale]

Originally posted by PrinceMyshkin BTW Dale aren't you an Aussie? What about a map for the colonization of Australlia. People tend to forget the down-under part of the world.

I bet it was also colonization happening there as well, or was it europeans appearing out of nowhere in the matter anti-matter fashion Hernann talked about before...

What about adding a leader to all factions, who would reflect to Australlian continent nations?

eg. William Dampier? Jeez couldn't he have a dumper name? Even better Captain James Cook!

So the Australlian flag appeas and they have Australlian city names! :P

I mean if you ever have the time...

Have you even loaded the "Columbus Dream" map?