Reply With QuoteThat's pretty convincing. It's nice to see a substantive post in place of your usual aggression.
Of course personally speaking I quite like WoW and should I get the MMO urge again the WoW x-pack will probably be my first choice.
The regular content updates are the main thing -- they regularly release, for free, new "Books" which are series of epic quests which take you into new zones/dungeons and progress the storyline of the books.Originally posted by DrSpike
I'd like to turn it around - why don't you tell us what you think makes LotRO better than WoW.
I shall look unfavourably on graphics based arguments. You mentioned better gameplay mechanics - good to hear more about those.
There's more room for strategy and true team play with the "Fellowship" conjunctions: http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Mecha...ship_Maneuvers
These take precise coordination to pull off but the payoff is well worth it when they do.
The "Deed" system. You have class deeds, racial deeds, and area/zone deed -- these are basically like Accomplishments but with various levels and a reward. For example, some are simple "Kill 300 Hillmen in Angmar" which grants a title of "Hillman-slayer" (you can choose between all the titles you earn to display with your character name), then the next level might be "Kill 600 Hillmen in Angmar (Advanced)" which would give you a Trait (more on this later). Other examples of deeds are "discover all of the ancient tombs in Evendim", "Drink 23 unique spirits" (the booze kind), "Use your Brace for Attack skill 200 times", "Find Bilbo's 8 buttons", etc. This is all independent of the quest systems, it's basically a supplemental quest system for people to earn better traits and titles for their characters.
The "Trait" system. The closest thing you could compare this to would be the "Talent trees" in WoW, but they're far different. Traits are earned via deed completion, they're things such as "Honesty", "Loyalty", "Valour", "Compassion", "Patience", etc. Each trait has many levels, each level improves on the last. For example, "Honesty" provides some stat bonuses to Fate, bonus to Power (mana), and bonus to armour. "Loyalty" bumps Vitality, bonus to Morale (hp), and bonus to armour. This encourages players to complete deeds to bump up their traits, which then buff their player. Additionally, you're only allowed to equip so many traits at any given time on your character -- you can't use them all. Further still, if you use sets of traits, you get additional skills/bonuses...this ensures that there's specialized players in high levels, there's no generic "Champion" or "Burglar", but many variations of them.
The PvP system. LOTRO has "Monster Play", which means anyone can man a max-level kickass monster (Troll, Giant, whatever) and fight against LOTRO characters using that. It provides a tremendous difference in gameplay between your usual character, and doing so produces "Infamy" experience and "Destiny points", which can be used to purchase skills and upgrades for your Monster Character, or temporary buffs which are very helpful on your player character. When you play as a Player Character, you get "Renown" experience and basically, this part functions as WoW with ranks and rewards, etc.
The housing system. All players in LOTRO can own their own house: a standard house, deluxe house, or a Kinship (guild) house. I've got a Standard house of my own in a nice neighborhood with 15 other houses. It's not overly large but there's lots of space to decorate it, The Sims-style (I know you'll love this DrSpike). You can craft furniture if you are a Woodworker, or otherwise buy from vendors or the auction house. You can display trophies on your wall of infamous mobs you've killed (if you looted their corpse and got a trophy object). You can even repaint the inside. This kind of stuff goes a long way to player immersion, even if it doesn't give you stat buffs or whatever. It actually encourages roleplaying, accordingly. My guild also has a massive Kinship house which we hang out in frequently when not questing, which is cool.
The clothing system. Like housing, it's supplemental to core gameplay. Every player can have 2 extra sets of clothing which are purely for cosmetics use only, they don't do anything but change the appearance of whatever aspects you like. Again, an immersion thing -- I've got a "winter" set of clothes I can switch to with a furry warm coat, boots, etc and another for fishing, where I wear angling gear. Doesn't take up any inventory space to do this. Just a nice touch.
The music system. Like the above, doesn't directly impact gaming -- but it is damn cool. You can play about a dozen instruments in the game, manually using the keyboard if you wish (which is challenging, but some people are really good), or you can play ".abc" files you've downloaded. Up to six people can even jam together synchronized if they all have the same file. Very good for the immersion/roleplaying factor.
The general art style. The cartoonyness of WoW grated on me.
The player base. All of the 12 year olds wanting "phat l00t" are playing World of Warcraft, the LOTRO playerbase is far more mature.
The storyline. WoW's storyline absolutely sucks compared to the Lord of the Rings, sorry.
The gameplay mechanics of the classes. For example, the Warden:
Wardens execute Gambits by coordinating a sequence of gambit icons in a new game UI element called the Gambit display. The Warden has three basic skills that may each add a gambit icon to the display.
Gambits themselves are organized into three broad categories that correspond back to the three gambit icons. The first icon in each Gambit’s activation sequence indicates that Gambit’s category. Wardens initially start with only two boxes in the Gambit display but as the Warden levels, a third, fourth, and fifth box are added. This progression allows more complex and powerful Gambits to be performed as the player masters previous skills and advances.
Spear gambits have a red Spear icon first in their sequences. These gambits all deal with physical attacks and are similar to the attack skills of other melee classes. Shield gambits use the green shield icon first in their sequences. These gambits add short term defensive buffs to the Warden and add heal over time effects. Fist gambits start with the yellow Fist icon. All of these gambits have additional threat while some of them also deal out damage-over-time effects.
Did I mention the fact that I don't pay monthly?
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
That's pretty convincing. It's nice to see a substantive post in place of your usual aggression.
Of course personally speaking I quite like WoW and should I get the MMO urge again the WoW x-pack will probably be my first choice.
WoW is decent, and I have a sister + friends playing it.
If I were to play one by myself, it would be LOTRO.
JM
Jon Miller-
I AM.CANADIAN
GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
graphics actually looks better than aoc. in a clean aesthetic way, not im gonna melt ur graphics card way.
still, id rather play wow just cause
-everyone else plays wow
-I vowed to never start playing another MMO
-LOTR sotry and all really isnt for me
:-p
I didn't even mention the legendary items, which look really, really cool.Originally posted by DrSpike
That's pretty convincing. It's nice to see a substantive post in place of your usual aggression.
Of course personally speaking I quite like WoW and should I get the MMO urge again the WoW x-pack will probably be my first choice.
But I mentioned that above.
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
I stillplay lotro (gladden server) and I think it's graphically phenomenal, especially the water.
It is similar to wow in structure, but the crafting is more fulfilling (useful) and the expansion looks to add some unique things.
If you aren't a hard core raider then lotro is better than wow pve wise. The epic book line nails that coffin shut. Hardcore raider? yeah, look elsewhere, but for non-raiders, lotro is much richer in terms of pve to me.
I like it.
While there might be a physics engine that applies to the jugs, I doubt that an entire engine was written specifically for the funbags. - Cyclotron - debating the pressing issue of boobies in games.
Nice post too Asher outlining the game a bit. I think alot of people (not those here who tried it, not talking to you guys), hear people say it's a wow clone or see a screenshot and a similar UI and think that it is a wow clone.
Thats unfortunate, because I find it much deeper than wow in almost every way (except raiding which I don't do anyway). But, because of the above, alot of players don't bother with it.
The legendary weapon system in the expansion should be very interesting.
While there might be a physics engine that applies to the jugs, I doubt that an entire engine was written specifically for the funbags. - Cyclotron - debating the pressing issue of boobies in games.
http://www.mmogchart.com/charts/Originally posted by Asher
Curious though, what are the latest LOTRO subscription numbers, since you apparently have them?
That probably one of the better sources you will get out there concerning subscription numbers. Although many companies such as SOE keep those numbers secret, there are ways to find out approximately what they are. And the guy who does this research explains that at his site.
I wish I could get the quote right now so it would be exact but the site I made it at has long since died, as well as the interest from the group of folks I knew who were watching the ups and downs of the development cycle of this game for years.
After Beta I essentially said something to the effect that initial subs would top out close to half a million based on the Tolkien Franchise. Then they would rapidly drop to the 200,000 to maybe 250,000 range.
I could be a bit off in my estimated numbers because that was what two years ago?
Anyway it seems LOTRO hasn't even done that well topping out at around 200K, and down to 150K. Assuming this guys research is close. So I considerably underestimated at the draw of LOTR in having people flock to another rehashed EQ or WoW or whatever.
And I take exception to calling me nothing but a troll, I made some very non trollish observations and you didn't agree so of course you come back with trolls because thats what you usually do vice countering arguements
Im not saying LOTRO is a bad game. Im saying LOTRO is a big disappointment. It had one of the biggest market names out there, second only maybe to the Star Wars Franchise, and all they can manage right now is 150,000 subscriptions, and they have lost 50,000 subs.
And initially Turbine was talking about a unique skills based game system, but in the end it was scrapped, and they went with the typical "themepark game". They went for the "Brass WoW Ring", and got an under average MMO market wise because of it.
Is it a good themepark game? Sure. But so much more could have been done with this franchise IMHO.
*"Winning is still the goal, and we cannot win if we lose (gawd, that was brilliant - you can quote me on that if you want. And con - I don't want to see that in your sig."- Beta
Not sure if you have problems reading graphs or if you're trying to spin it a certain way, but those figures are ten months old and they don't give a source -- given that only Turbine knows how many subscribes they have and given that they haven't announced anything I'm finding the figures curious.
I pre-ordered the expansion last week from their website and it took me three days for the order to go through due to the volume of people hitting the site.
I don't know why this matters anyway. Asheron's Call (1) has even less subscribers and they're still doing monthly updates 9 years into it. Turbine is into these games for the long haul, and it's a great game. The subscriber numbers are meaningless to players like myself. I don't give a ****.
I'm really tired of your constant rhetoric. Say something of substance -- what should they have done better?Is it a good themepark game? Sure. But so much more could have been done with this franchise IMHO.
Make it more raid-happy like World of Warcraft? No thanks, I'm not a big raid fan.
Make it more cartoony like World of Warcraft? No thanks.
The problem is as Jon Miller mentioned -- it may be a better game, but people play where their friends are. For most people, most of their friends play WoW so they play it with them. In my case, my close group of friends all got into the LOTRO betas and liked it a lot better, and we all cancelled our WoW and have been in LOTRO ever since.
It's all about the people. WoW's size is its asset, I think any game right now aiming for WoW's marketshare is going to be in for a world of hurt.
Has it ever occurred to you that some people like playing good games because they're fun? The biggest sign that subscriber-base is a bad metric: Final Fantasy XI has more subscribers than LOTRO, and that is a ****ing epicly terrible game. I played it at gunpoint from the SO for 3 months before he conceded it was just terrible. The Lineage games are also awful, even EQ2 is brutally bad.
More rhetoric. It is a skills-based game, it's a frickin MMORPG. Cite this and elaborate if you're going to make driveby claims.And initially Turbine was talking about a unique skills based game system
Last edited by Asher; October 21, 2008 at 10:09.
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
Its not a skills based game, its a level game.
Skills based sandbox = SWG Pre CU/ eve online.
Themepark level games = WoW/ Eq/ Lotro/ Pick about just any other MMO out there.
If you know anything about MMO's which I assumed you did because you said you played a lot of them, you would know what I am talking about. My apologises for making that silly assumption.
Lets for the sake of arguement say his numbers are wrong, and the real subscription numbers for LOTRO are 500,000. Thats three times his estimate.
And lets say the subscription numbers for WoW are wrong, lets say they are 3,000,000. Thats about three times LESS then what this guy said.
Based on the Franchise appeal, LOTRO is still a disappointment even after I have skewed the numbers.
Ya so maybe the numbers are off, I already stated some of his numbers are estimates, and I already said that if you assume he is close to correct. If you don't want to do that fine. If I was dumb enough to pay 200 bucks for a lifetime subscription to this game, I would probably be trying to rationalize as well.
The LOTR franchise SHOULD be pulling in big numbers. Not just based on the books but also the movies which were a huge hit.
How do you know that Turbines initial design on this game was rhetoric? Did you follow this game for years before it came out? Because if you did you would know that. It was on there forums and website. That was before the redesign.
But again, Im not saying its a bad game for a typical themepark. Its not. Its just a big disappointment.
*"Winning is still the goal, and we cannot win if we lose (gawd, that was brilliant - you can quote me on that if you want. And con - I don't want to see that in your sig."- Beta
The analysis and conclusions section:
http://www.mmogchart.com/analysis-and-conclusions/
This guy seems to be honest and upfront about the ballpark nature of these graphs.
If you have a better source please feel free to share.
*"Winning is still the goal, and we cannot win if we lose (gawd, that was brilliant - you can quote me on that if you want. And con - I don't want to see that in your sig."- Beta
I know the differences, it's just incredibly poor terminology. Since skills are vital in all of the games, it's not a good phrase.Originally posted by conmcb25
Its not a skills based game, its a level game.
Skills based sandbox = SWG Pre CU/ eve online.
Themepark level games = WoW/ Eq/ Lotro/ Pick about just any other MMO out there.
If you know anything about MMO's which I assumed you did because you said you played a lot of them, you would know what I am talking about. My apologises for making that silly assumption.
When you say like SWG Pre-CU or Eve Online, I know what you mean. Having played Eve Online, I'm very glad they didn't make LOTRO like that.
This is infuriatingly retarded. I don't give a **** how many subscribers it has. They're still putting out more content faster than WoW is with a fraction of the sales. I'm not saying it'll ever be more popular or even remotely as popular as World of Warcraft. I thought I've made it clear that I don't give a **** how popular it is.Lets for the sake of arguement say his numbers are wrong, and the real subscription numbers for LOTRO are 500,000. Thats three times his estimate.
And lets say the subscription numbers for WoW are wrong, lets say they are 3,000,000. Thats about three times LESS then what this guy said.
Based on the Franchise appeal, LOTRO is still a disappointment even after I have skewed the numbers.
I'm just saying it's a better game than WoW. Whether the masses are buying Wiis and playing WoW is unimportant to me. Some people have no taste.
Do you know what rhetoric is? It was rhetoric because you said it and you didn't support it and it's not common knowledge. I've asked you to support it and you still haven't, you're now *****ing about subscriber numbers even though I've made it clear I don't care at all about them.How do you know that Turbines initial design on this game was rhetoric?
Holy hell. Let's recap: I don't give a **** about subscriber numbers. That said, Turbine has never released subscriber counts so any numbers will be ballpark figures.This guy seems to be honest and upfront about the ballpark nature of these graphs.
If you have a better source please feel free to share.
If you're trying to hint that Turbine's financials aren't sound due to not having 10 million subscribers, I disagree. They actually just opened up a west-coast development studio to supplement the current developer studio.
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
If the endgame for LotRO isn't raiding, what happens? Is it mainly PvP or smaller non-raid group instances, very high level cap, or something else entirely?
There are raiding instances that are repeatable, it's just not the only real option like it is for WoW.Originally posted by DrSpike
If the endgame for LotRO isn't raiding, what happens? Is it mainly PvP or smaller non-raid group instances, very high level cap, or something else entirely?
There's lots of small group (2-3 man) or fellowship (6 man) instances which are repeatable. You can also re-play any of the previous "Books" and their instances to collect "tokens" which are used to purchase rare recipes, items, etc.
You can also try to complete all of the deeds, which takes a while, to get the maximum trait values to improve your character.
You can also do lots of reputation-granting repeatable quests or even farming for reputation items to improve your reputation with the different factions. Improved standing grants you access to rare recipes, items, and areas/zones.
What's also common is players just play alts also and get them up to the cap. The gameplay is sufficiently different for each class that it's a different enough experience. All your alts have the same access to your personal Home by the way.
Like WoW, there's PvP as well (technically PvMP, player vs monster player)
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
There's non-raid stuff in the WoW endgame though, it just doesn't offer a comparable character improvement/time ratio.
Same with LotrO?
I've done the raiding thing and it was fun but I don't see myself doing it again.
It's about the same -- you can do reputation or PvP stuff and get access to very good gear comparable to that of raiding.Originally posted by DrSpike
There's non-raid stuff in the WoW endgame though, it just doesn't offer a comparable character improvement/time ratio.
Same with LotrO?
I've done the raiding thing and it was fun but I don't see myself doing it again.
The problem with raiding is it was a ***** to organize, so much wasted time. LOTRO is far easier to 2/3/6-man instances and still get great gear. But you can also get it via reputation gains, or via repeatable quests/books which provide tokens to exchange for excellent stuff.
And the best part is, thanks to the Legendary Weapons system, all of the cool stuff people worked hard for at the cap (lvl 50) isn't wasted now that the cap is going up to 60. They can "distill" the stat bonuses from their epic gear and apply it to their new Legendary Items to customize and improve them.
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
You just don't get it Asher.Originally posted by Asher
stuff
The point on numbers is, if LOTRO is such a good game, and it has huge premade market appeal with a huge franchise name, why hasn't it done better in subs?
Its obvious you didn't follow this game much during development. I can't prove the initial design attempts by Turbine because the website they were on are long gone. The LOTRO website is on its fourth or fifth iteration since they started working on this thing 6 or 7 years ago. But hey if you don't want to believe it thats fine, I don't give a rats arse.
Skills have very little to do with LOTRO, its your basic button masher just like EQ or WoW or pick an MMO. Level is everything. You wouldn't even think about trying to take on the Balrog (or whatever your end game beast is) unless you were the top level. No matter what your skill bar is. Because you are just going to mash a bunch of buttons anyway. Its the level that matters. When was the last time you went to Weathertop at level 3?
I never said anything about Turbines financials, nor did I intend to hint that they were doing bad.
Gamers say a lot with there pocketbooks. and that crappy game (as you have insinuated EVE is) has more subscribers and better steady growth than LOTRO. And LOTRO has a huge Market draw that EVE will never have.
Im not saying EVE is better, nor do I want you to assume that Im saying that.
All Im saying is that LOTRO is a big disappointment because with the name brand they should have a lot more subscribers. So why don't they? Because its basically the same as most of the rest of the MMO clones out there.
And when it comes right down to it, why should someone play LOTRO, if all there buddies are playing WoW?
Because there buddies aren't thats why, because despite the Market draw name brand, LOTRO isn't pulling in the numbers it could potentially have based on name recognition.
Waiting for the next frenzied trollish response
*"Winning is still the goal, and we cannot win if we lose (gawd, that was brilliant - you can quote me on that if you want. And con - I don't want to see that in your sig."- Beta
Didn't even read the rest of your post. I'm so bored of it it's not even funny.Originally posted by conmcb25
You just don't get it Asher.
The point on numbers is, if LOTRO is such a good game, and it has huge premade market appeal with a huge franchise name, why hasn't it done better in subs?
If you think quality can only be measured by sales or subscription count, you're completely off your rocker.
Period.
There are far more dynamics in the MMORPG market than you can comprehend. WoW and LOTRO are similar on their face, and WoW is the "it" game everyone is talking about well before LOTRO came out. It's a game "good enough" for most people, so they haven't even tried LOTRO to see if it's a better game. If you ask around, most people who played LOTRO did find it to be the better game and its reviews were all very positive as well too, and it's gotten even better since launch.
WoW is a market juggernaut and similar games to it that are not sufficiently different (eg, Eve -- which is not a crap game, just not my cup of tea -- is sufficiently different) will not get the same subscribers as the "it" game. That's the main factor here.
If you'd like further basic lessons in common sense, feel free to look elsewhere because my tome of knowledge is closed to you. If you don't get it now, you never will. Now I ask you in the kindest way possible to **** off so the people who have something to say can have a real discussion.
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
That is a good idea - it's pretty annoying when gear you played for maybe months to get is obselete within 10 hours play of the expansion.Originally posted by Asher
And the best part is, thanks to the Legendary Weapons system, all of the cool stuff people worked hard for at the cap (lvl 50) isn't wasted now that the cap is going up to 60. They can "distill" the stat bonuses from their epic gear and apply it to their new Legendary Items to customize and improve them.
Why do you have to keep repeating the fact that its a good game. I didn't say it was crap. and I never said it was crappy compared to WoW.
All Im saying if its as good as you say it is, then why didn't it cut into that WoW market share more than what it did?
Because despite the Name Brand recognition, its basically the same old game.
Get over yourself already
*"Winning is still the goal, and we cannot win if we lose (gawd, that was brilliant - you can quote me on that if you want. And con - I don't want to see that in your sig."- Beta
And THAT IS THE POINT I CONTESTED WITH LONG, DETAILED POSTS. IT IS THE POINT YOU ARE IGNORING.Originally posted by conmcb25
Why do you have to keep repeating the fact that its a good game. I didn't say it was crap. and I never said it was crappy compared to WoW.
All Im saying if its as good as you say it is, then why didn't it cut into that WoW market share more than what it did?
Because despite the Name Brand recognition, its basically the same old game.
I may be an ass, but you are genuinely rude. I didn't write those posts for fun.
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
No you are being rude, I saw, a lot of trollish posts, and some denial but very little to back it up.
I see some interesting twists to the "themepark genre", which I think we can agree is genre LOTRO fits into.
But thats it.
Tell me why the core game is different, and why I should leave my WoW friends behind?
And don't forget you are talking to someone who followed this game for years, and tried REALLY HARD to like it in Beta, where Ill be the fisrt to admit it was very polished and well done at that point. Much better than any other MMO, I have Beta'ed.
(Note I don't play WoW any longer and never will again, Im just using that for the sake of arguement.)
*"Winning is still the goal, and we cannot win if we lose (gawd, that was brilliant - you can quote me on that if you want. And con - I don't want to see that in your sig."- Beta
I've already identified the ways LOTRO is a better game than WoW. Consider reading my posts and actually understanding them.
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
Con, did you read post #31? That pretty much answered that as far as I can tell... unless you define the 'core' gameplay as the default MMORPG gameplay (go fedex for a while, then grind for a while, then PvP or high-level quest grind for a while, or whatnot), which is pretty much the definition of MMORPG (only Guild Wars doesn't do this, really, and it's not a MMORPG for that reason among others).
Asher's saying that the rest of the gameplay - other than the absolute core stuff- is what is interesting and different. And in the scheme of things that's what drives people to a specific MMORPG anyway - the atmosphere, the stuff you do in between quests, the ways you team up with people, the lore/story, and the 'magic' system. Those are all (according to Asher, in post 31) different, and interesting.
<Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.
Yes I did Snoop, and I have already admitted that some of the differences sound interesting, and have all but said its a better game than WoW.Originally posted by snoopy369
Con, did you read post #31? That pretty much answered that as far as I can tell... unless you define the 'core' gameplay as the default MMORPG gameplay (go fedex for a while, then grind for a while, then PvP or high-level quest grind for a while, or whatnot), which is pretty much the definition of MMORPG (only Guild Wars doesn't do this, really, and it's not a MMORPG for that reason among others).
Asher's saying that the rest of the gameplay - other than the absolute core stuff- is what is interesting and different. And in the scheme of things that's what drives people to a specific MMORPG anyway - the atmosphere, the stuff you do in between quests, the ways you team up with people, the lore/story, and the 'magic' system. Those are all (according to Asher, in post 31) different, and interesting.
I bolded one of your statements because I take exception to it. The Themepark genre as I call it (and others do as well) is not necessarily what defines an MMORPG. Thats a type of MMORPG but it doesn't define the genre. Although with the huge amount of games that are essentially that, its getting close to that point.
Again using SWG Pre CU (before they tried and failed miserably to make it a WoW clone), and EVE Online, and I believe UO in the day are examples of much more open ended "Sandbox Gameplay".
In a sandbox you can do whatever you want and go wherever you want, whenenever you want. There is no quest arc you have to follow to level. Just train the skills you want to do what you want, when you want to do it and kncok yourself out. There are no Warriors or Archers or other classes that are essentially locked into a style of gameplay, for there entire existance.
Thats the direction Turbine was going with LOTRO, back when it was called Middle Earth Online. And IMHO with Middle Earth as a backdrop you could do one heck of a sandbox game, and Middle Earth geeks the world over would love it, me included.
Instead the WoW gorilla came out. Turbine got pressure from investors after it used investor money to buy its way out from underneath its publisher. At that point, they scrapped all they did IRT the sandbox, and made another typical WoW/ EQ/ pick an MMO game. Because they new that was safe, and it would make $$, if nothing else on the Name Brand alone.
So yep, I agknowledge its better than the usual clone seen out there today. But in the end its another themepark game in a Middle Earth wrapper. The core game play is essentially the same.
Thats really my issue in a nutshell. This game could have been a lot bigger and a lot more interesting than it is, if they would have just been different. And there is a market for that, EVE Online is still going strong and was released at the same time as Star Wars Galaxies which was initially much more popular. I believe SWG had around a half a million subs at its height. Before SOE and Lucas Arts screwed it up by trying to make it a WoW clone.
So thats my issue really, its the same old thing.
Start and AOC, or a Warhammer thread and Ill say the same thing. although I really don't care much about either of those new titles. Not as much as I cared about the Middle Earth one. The one Turbine disappointed me on.
*"Winning is still the goal, and we cannot win if we lose (gawd, that was brilliant - you can quote me on that if you want. And con - I don't want to see that in your sig."- Beta
Why do they have to be different? Millions of people like the 'themepark' MMORPG. Sure, it would be nice to have some different games, but I think for something like LOTR:O they should create something more like the 'standard', because it's a wide-audience product. You make 'different' - as in, ground-breaking, new designs not released before - in new properties, not in wide-audience products. I entirely agree with this. You might not like it, and that's fine - look for a 'different' MMO, someone will make it someday
But that's just my two cents.
<Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.
Blah blah blah, you keep saying the same **** that is without substance and already discussed. Further still, now you start adding detail and when you do I can call bullshit on it.Originally posted by conmcb25
Yes I did Snoop, and I have already admitted that some of the differences sound interesting, and have all but said its a better game than WoW.
I bolded one of your statements because I take exception to it. The Themepark genre as I call it (and others do as well) is not necessarily what defines an MMORPG. Thats a type of MMORPG but it doesn't define the genre. Although with the huge amount of games that are essentially that, its getting close to that point.
Again using SWG Pre CU (before they tried and failed miserably to make it a WoW clone), and EVE Online, and I believe UO in the day are examples of much more open ended "Sandbox Gameplay".
In a sandbox you can do whatever you want and go wherever you want, whenenever you want. There is no quest arc you have to follow to level. Just train the skills you want to do what you want, when you want to do it and kncok yourself out. There are no Warriors or Archers or other classes that are essentially locked into a style of gameplay, for there entire existance.
Thats the direction Turbine was going with LOTRO, back when it was called Middle Earth Online. And IMHO with Middle Earth as a backdrop you could do one heck of a sandbox game, and Middle Earth geeks the world over would love it, me included.
For instance, "Middle Earth Online" is 100% different from LOTRO. Middle Earth Online was under development by Sierra in the late 1990s. LOTRO is by Turbine, a completely different company. For somebody who supposedly followed the project for years before release, that's a major factual error.
What you are suggesting is you take an expensive and popular IP, like Lord of the Rings, and then gamble with fundamentally different gameplay on it just to be different. That's ridiculous, and I'm sure they'd never have gotten any venture money to start the thing.
Last edited by Asher; October 21, 2008 at 18:37.
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
WOW actually copied LOTRO with the recent expansion adding achievements, which seem very similar to other achievement systems. Like LOTRO's deeds (Except you don't get anything from the WOW ones but maybe a title).
JM
Jon Miller-
I AM.CANADIAN
GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
I think that some games definitely take a lot more skill than others. Eve is one of them, I don't think Asher ever really played it at it's best (I Think he mostly did standard PvE missions, which is what I have mostly done as well, but if you know how to set up your ship those are just rinse repeat), but PvP and the market take a lot of skill.
Another one, from what I have seen of it, is Guild Wars.
If you want to get to more standard MMOs, ones that take more skill and have more fun gameplay from my perspective were LOTRO and CoH/CoV.
WOW, EQ2, AO... all are/were really boring for combat. The best part of WOW is tanking, the rest I put up with just to be part of an MMO with friends. (And I play a Druid in WOW so I can mix it up sometimes)
And while I played the first two versions of SWG, it was similar to EVE in that the standard grind process was really boring.
JM
(My guess is that Asher's SO got him to play EVE at gun point as well. I plan on playing it until the server goes down... and EVE is still gaining people.)
Jon Miller-
I AM.CANADIAN
GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
What's the total install size - once you are fully patched up?
I use a laptop for gaming so size is important. While my machine was perfectly adept at running AoC, the install took 1/2 my hard drive - too much space. I'd like to play another MMO, if I can find one that isn't such a space hog.
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