21% of American atheists don't know what "atheist" means

[Elok]

http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

This caught my eye when it was mentioned in the Religion section of todays WaPo. At first I thought it was a joke or taken out of context, but on closer inspection...no. 21% of atheists in this study have some sort of belief in God. Of those, six percent believe in a "personal God," i.e. something like Jehovah. So, um, discuss, I guess.

[Traianvs]

What is there to discuss?

Most people are idiots, and believers in particular

[Elok]

Eat me

I imagine we could discuss what peculiar circumstances could cause a person to define himself as an atheist who believes in God.

[Traianvs]

This is informative



Though the graphs merely state the obvious

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by Elok
Eat me

I imagine we could discuss what peculiar circumstances could cause a person to define himself as an atheist who believes in God.

I can't possibly fathom that really. Perhaps they included the mentally challenged fellow men in the survey?

OR

Perhaps they're people who are raised in very religious contexts, so they probably have never truly learned what an atheist is. That 21% might think it just means someone who doesn't pray or goes to church.

Sounds stupid I know, but heh what else could it be

[Lorizael]

This was my exact quote when I read this a little while ago.

I don't understand how people can be so dumb.

[Seedle]

Originally posted by Traianvs
Perhaps they're people who are raised in very religious contexts, so they probably have never truly learned what an atheist is. That 21% might think it just means someone who doesn't pray or go to church.

Sounds stupid I know, but heh what else could it be

That's not stupid, that's a good guess. I know many people who would consider a non-church goer or a believer in a non-personal God an atheist. I've gotten into arguments about this actually.

[Lancer]

Just for yucks, were there any born again athiests?

Sadly I'm thinking that the 21%, while not overly endowed with brain cells, are a whole lot more in tune than the 79%.

[Impaler[WrG]]

The surveys breakdown of the 21% figure was as follows

6% Personal God, 12% Impersonal Force, 3% Don't Know

Your blatantly exaggerating when you state 21% don't know what "atheist" means as your including both the 'Impersonal Force' and the Don't Know segments. The 'Force' answer is perfectly consistent with atheism, though the Don't Know answer is arguably agnosticism it could indicate a stance that "god can't be disproved, thus I can't say for sure".

The 6% probably believe their is a personal god but DON'T believe the god of any mainstream religion is that god. Such people often call themselves "Spiritual', the closest survey category would be "Religious unaffiliated". These folks would likely put themselves in that category if it was explained to them. I'm afraid your simply trying to twist the survey into a slander upon atheists.

[Lancer]

Anyone that needs proof of God has a tough path ahead.

[tinyp3nis]

6% are obviously megalonomaniacs who think they are god themselves.

At first I thought it was a joke or taken out of context, but on closer inspection...no.

What was this closer inspection? Putting on glasses? It's easier to just keep them always on like me

[Seedle]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
I'm afraid your simply trying to twist the survey into a slander upon atheists.

Interesting, I took it as a slander upon Americans. Although "slander" is actually a stronger term than what would describe my thinking. So I actually took it as an oberservation upon Americans.

[Lancer]

I'm sure they were just screwing will the poll takers.

[Agathon]

They're American atheists. What do you expect?

Hell, some of you still believe you're free.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
The 'Force' answer is perfectly consistent with atheism

Not really.

Unless this 'Force' being referred to is actually something like gravity or electromagnetism.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

On the one hand, people are idiots.

On the other hand, religious conservatives -- who tend to dominate American public discourse on religion -- have repeatedly conflated their own peculiar brand of myths, rituals, and and creative textual interpretation with "believing in God," so it should be no surprise that other Americans might conflate/confuse "atheistic" and "areligious."

On the third hand (or first foot, or whatever), "personal God" is a pretty ambiguous category, but I would guess that a self-described atheist using such a category would not mean the same thing a Christian does (i.e., Jehovah, Jesus-is-my-personal-savior, etc.). A better guess would be that the phrase was interpreted to mean a belief in the potential immanent divinity of one's self -- a belief consistent with Buddhism, which is also technically atheist.

The key question, I suppose, is whether a belief in the divine is the same as a belief in a deity. Few theists would argue that they are the same, so why should it be puzzling to find atheists who nevertheless entertain a concept of the divine?

[DinoDoc]

How many hands do you have, Rufus?

[Rufus T. Firefly]

A bunch. But then, I'm a Hindu deity.

[Lancer]

If you have a bunch, you're a banana.

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by Lancer
Anyone that needs proof of God has a tough path ahead.

Now, now Lancer, don't make assumptions...you're treading a dangerous path there

[Elok]

For crying out loud, read the actual results, people. It's right there: "NET Believe in God." Not "NET Believe in Spirituality of Some Sort" or "NET Not Strict Materialists." Of course that includes Spinoza-type pantheism, but if that belief includes some sort of fuzzy auto-theism, what isn't a belief in God? These poll results are based on self-reporting, BTW.

And I didn't mean this as a "slander" on anyone, just an amusing head-scratcher. Since, y'know, atheists BY DEFINITION do not believe in God.

[Sandman]

Maybe they're cultural atheists.

[BeBro]

Atheism?

Ozzy in 3...2...1...

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Elok
For crying out loud, read the actual results, people. It's right there: "NET Believe in God." Not "NET Believe in Spirituality of Some Sort" or "NET Not Strict Materialists." Of course that includes Spinoza-type pantheism, but if that belief includes some sort of fuzzy auto-theism, what isn't a belief in God? These poll results are based on self-reporting, BTW.

Um, no.

Let's take the biggie: 12% report a belief in an "impersonal force." Did they self-report a belief in God? No. Is an "impersonal force" the same thing as God? Not according to most religious leaders, no.

So why the hell is the survey counting belief in an "impersonal force" as belief in God? Good question. Pity it wasn't answered.

Ironically, based just on what you posted, it sounds like either "NET Believe in Spirituality of Some Sort" or "NET Not Strict Materialists" would actually be a more honest label, and more reasonable interpretation of the data.

[onodera]

I'm more amused by the non-100% figures for belief in God among the religious groups. Or did they count "I attend the church for social benefits" people as belonging to a religion?

[Whaleboy]

For something like this I think it's important to say that when you compare atheism to religion you're not comparing like with like. Atheism, unlike religion which is a whole system of thought, custom and dogma, is merely a statement that there is no god; a conclusion one can reach (quite easily I might add) based on evidence.

What you build on top of that conclusion, say, secular humanism for example, may follow naturally but it is not a necessary consequence of atheism; hence perhaps the confusion. Indeed, you could quite happily be a secular humanist but still privately believe in a creator (perhaps in the manner of Douglas Adams' "Artificial God" idea), but mistakenly term yourself an atheist. You could have religious impulses but not be comfortable about categorising them into a given religion. You could just be an agnostic (a position I find even less fathomable than theism). You could just get a giddy little thrill out of describing yourself as a non-conformist atheist in a deeply religious society.

Either way, it doesn't surprise me that a good number of people who think they agree with a technical philosophical term in fact don't. I'm surprised the number isn't higher.

[Tattila the Hun]

Originally posted by Cort Haus


Not really.

Unless this 'Force' being referred to is actually something like gravity or electromagnetism.

Obviously, they are Jedi.

[Impaler[WrG]]

'Karma' would be a good example of an 'impersonal force' that one might believe in (millions do) that would lead you to that answer on the survey. Karma (to the best of my understanding) is believed to be a universal force of nature like gravity or electromagnetism, its simply how the universe works rather then something being imposed on the universe by a god.

[Elok]

Rufus, ask one of our philosogeeks to explain Spinoza. His vision of God is stupid and pointless to me, but IIRC he still called it a God. There seems to be a whole movement in philosophy circles and liberal religious movements to turn God into some hippy-dippy cosmic force or thought process. Not to mention Hinduism; the standard Hindu conception of God is definitely a deity, but not personal after the western fashion.

And again, this poll is based on self-identification; they ask, "what are you?" and write down what you say, regardless of dogmatic contradictions. Hence not all Catholics in that poll claimed to believe in God. The questions about personal deity, impersonal force or other were posed to all people, hence this chart:



Note that at least a few people of all religions identified their deity as some sort of cosmic blob.

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by Elok
http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

This caught my eye when it was mentioned in the Religion section of todays WaPo. At first I thought it was a joke or taken out of context, but on closer inspection...no. 21% of atheists in this study have some sort of belief in God. Of those, six percent believe in a "personal God," i.e. something like Jehovah. So, um, discuss, I guess.

100% of religionists believe in God.