Strategy Discussion - Metagame

[sooooo]

Gunpowder isn't really the vital tech. Nationalism is. Our UU is better than macemen yes, but not hugely. I think our main chance in this game is that the other two teams on our continent don't know how to abuse nationhood

[Swiss Pauli]

Originally posted by mostly-harmless
To get to Gunpowder as quick as possible we would "only" need after Monarchy (if I remember correctly):
Metal Casting
Feudalism
Machinery
Guilds
Gunpowder

That's not too long a way IF we beeline for it, is it?

mh

Nationalism needs:
Civil Service
Paper
Philosophy

Maces need:
Civil Service
Metal Casting
Machinery

We also require cats for either approach. I think Maces first then head to Gunpowder (either via Feud & Guilds or Education depending on the trade possibilities).

[Kylearan]

Hi,

beelining to Gunpowder/Nationalism would imply skipping the Great Library. Maybe a detour to Literature first might be worth the delay.

At least we've talked about going for the Great Library before, which I thought was a good idea.

-Kylearan

[mostly-harmless]

Yes, I agree on at least trying for the Great Lib.
I was merely pointing out beelining as an option.

mh

[Zeviz]

There is also a completely different course of action to consider: Economic focus with an Astronomy beeline, and protection aided by purchasing Iron for a few minutes to upgrade Spears. This bypasses the need for Iron by not fighting any aggressive wars until we can find a source on another continent. (And once we establish contact with remaining civs and gift them a bunch of techs as our first action, it should be easy to find somebody willing to loan us iron for a few minutes.)

There are two options for this plan:

1. Independent play making any deals we can, and relying on power graph and good garrisons on borders to protect ourselves.

2. A continent-wide alliance, including a trade embargo on another continent.

Option 2 would give better security, but is unlikely to be achievable. Option 1 would be more dangerous, but no more dangerous than trying an HA rush against Longbows. I think we could pull off option 1 with a combination of appeasement and strong economic development, but Sulla and m_h probably have a stronger feel for the game. So what do you think?

PS The reason I began to think in this direction is that unless we can pull Imperio into our war with Templars, they are likely to give them Feudalism if the see that we are advancing too quickly.

[Zeviz]

So what did we decide?

If we are planning on a war, we need to start roading towards front, instead of pre-chopping for Great Library.

If we are planning on peace, we need to start planning a draft of continent-wide agreement to send to Templars as soon as we settle Marble spot.

PS I am more inclined towards peace, but I want any decision to be a conscious decision instead of just going along from turn to turn without agreeing on a direction.

[sunrise089]

I think we've settled to no war before Nationalism, but I don't know why that necessitates any agreement with the Templars now...after all we've lost one spot and won the other.

[mostly-harmless]

Lets wait for Southern Marble to be settled and defended.

mh

[Swiss Pauli]

From the tunrplayer thread:

However, I think we should give serious thought to establishing a silver colony on PAL's island. If PAL responds aggressively, we can use this to turn Imperio and Templars against them to try to freeze them out of trading. Given that there's a lot to consider (investment in the city, worker turns, risk, etc.) then I suggest to move this discussion to the strategy thread.

Frankly, I think PAL will soon run away with this game and our only chance of being on the winning team is to (eventually) team up with Templars and Imperio. As such, I see the silver colony as a key location as it will test PAL's aggressive approach ('do what we say or die'), and give us access (for a while at least) to important happiness resources.

[Sullla]

I'm certainly willing to think about it for a point in time maybe 20 turns from now. Having a strategic foothold on the other continent would very useful to have, obviously, and doubly so if it can secure us a rare, useful happiness resource. We really do need to focus on our own corner of the world for the moment, however. PAL will be too busy mopping up Rabbits to do much in the immediate future, I think, giving us time to get over there later if we desire.

I don't agree that an alliance with Templars and Imperio is the way to go in this game. Templars have clearly shown that they are incompetent, and I don't think we'll be able to coordinate actions particularly well with an Imperio team that has trouble communicating and does little diplomatically. PAL's devouring of Rabbits demonstrates that this is going to be a violent free-for-all type of affair. Our best hope of winning is to overrun the other two teams on our island sometime in the medieval or early industrial period, then set up a lategame mano-y-mano showdown with PAL. Fortunately, I'm confident we can do this. All we have to do is prevent Templars and Imperio from teaming up against us, which we should be adept enough at diplomacy to pull off.

[Dreylin]

Personally I'm less concerned about competing with PaL for the spot as I am about Imperio. We know they can see two of the Silver from Uxmal - even without them having a fleet - and that there are no borders nearby, so we have to assume they are thinking about grabbing it themselves. As I see it, in 20t the spot will be gone, so we either have to go now or not at all.

Even so, if we were Imperio and we saw a Settler starting to walk through our land, and the Galley returning from the East we'd put two and two together and close borders. They have nothing to fear from us militarily at the moment now they have Feudalism & Longbows, and I'm sure they're getting enough trade route income from PaL & Templars to not miss any from us.

I don't mean to be so negative - I would love to have a Silver city as much as the rest of you - but I just don't see us getting it past Imperio.

The only way I see it working would be if they are complacent and think they can delay going for it, and we load up a Galley where they can't see what's in it and then sail around. Even then, we have no way to defend the site effectively, and "enemies" on both sides....

[Swiss Pauli]

C&D reports indicate Imperio might be working on a Settler, but I still don't think we should rush to claim the Silver site. The fact that we're on the far side of our island should make our city seem much less threatening to PAL than one settled by Imperio, which is another reason why Imperio will possibly concentrate more on filling out the sites in their backyard before reaching across the water.

As to our long-term prospects, I don't see us being able to get enough of an edge to take down Imperio, and I think it will also be a struggle to defeat Templars in a one-on-one. It's obvious that PAL will dominate their landmass, but there's also a New World out there that they can claim. Speaking of which, would PAL need to take some of our island to claim a Dom win?

[T-hawk]

Also, what about T-hawk's suggestion to rush a settler to Eastern continent? Yes, we couldn't protect them from a determined PAL attack

I don't remember suggesting that... have I been confused with someone else or is my memory completely gone? Anyway, I think we could never hold it against PAL. A remote outpost can't be defended against the entire offensive might of a human player. And consider PAL's situation; as soon as they're done with Rabbits (either by conquest or peace), they'll have a dozen idle War Chariots looking for blood. And yes, Imperio can easily block us from getting there anyawy to claim it themselves if they want. I say better to focus on our own backyard (though of course I'm always the inveterate builder.)

[Swiss Pauli]

I don't see why people are fixated on us having to defend Silvertown against PAL. It's protection is the fact that if they take it, then they have to take us out completely which won't happen until we've had plenty of value out of the site. Alternatively, they call it quits after taking Silvertown, in which case they end up looking like bloodthirsty bullies, and this should allow us to isolate them diplomatically. I call it the Obi Wan defence...

[Zeviz]

The main reason I like idea of the Silver City is that our only other option is Bad Ass, but we aren't even close to being ready to fight Templars. Since Silver City will require minimum resources (if somebody decides to take it, we can't stop them), we might as well found it before we start gearing up for Templar war.

As for Silver City, we should be able to defend it diplomatically, telling PAL that "if we didn't settle there Imperio would; we've been so nice to you; we desperately needed some happy resources; and we are no threat because we are on the other side of the world, etc." (Depending on the situation we might even say that "without that city, it will be hard for us to prevent Imperio from dominating our continent as completely as you [PAL] dominate yours.")

As for getting the Settler there, how long would it take us to produce a second Galley? The idea of sneaking a loaded Galley past Imperio sounds appealing. (I heard BtS doesn't tell enemies what's on the transports.)

PS Looks like rushing settler to new continent was M_h's, rather than T-hawk's suggestion. Sorry about confusion.