Earliest expansion vs. earliest wonders

[Vampgelus]

Assuming your starting techs are agriculture and the wheel, and you are neither imperialist nor industrious, what are your (very detailled) build and tech orders if you want to get quickly up to eight citys and get all ancient wonders including the pyramids ?

I've noticed that even on noble difficulty, it seems really hard to get stonhenge if you build a settler before it, even if you have stone in your second city, having stone in the first one seems to be the only thing that helps.

I usually get up to 3 pop building warriors (or workboats if needed) while researching mining and BW, whip from 3 to 2 pop for the first worker and chop another one while researching mysticism.

Once i got mysticism i start building stonehenge, but make the city grow to 3 or 4 pop, then build a settler (chopping that one) and try to finish stonehenge after that settler.

My first build in the second city is usually a grenary, or a barracks if i don't have pottery by the turn he is settled (that's my research after myst). Grenarys are my top priority build everywhere in order to get the max out of slavery, and i often whip from 3 to 2 for that building.

Great Wall is my next priority, and i'll build it in the second city in order to prevent Great Spies in my capital, sometimes i get it, but sometimes it's built a couple of turns after i finish stonehenge (i've seen games where it was built before SH !).

I try to find windows for building settlers and workers in all my citys, but priority goes to wonders as soon as they are available by tech. I usually go for Maconry, Polytheism & Priesthood once i got Sailing (saves time for not needing roads), hoping i may get judaism after theese, but i almost never get it. I oracle metalcasting and the go for writing, mathematics and CoL if i don't have a religion yet. If i have, i'll go for Calendar if i have 2 or more ressources needing it, for currency otherwise.

Well that's it. I usually get 8 citys OR some wonders, but it really seems incompatible, especially if i don't have marble & stone .

[Willem]

Originally posted by Vampgelus
Assuming your starting techs are agriculture and the wheel, and you are neither imperialist nor industrious, what are your (very detailled) build and tech orders if you want to get quickly up to eight citys and get all ancient wonders including the pyramids ?

I wouldn't even bother with most of the ancient wonders. I certainly would never go for Stonehenge, that's a pointless wonder IMO. If you really want some early culture in your cities, just play Creative. The only one I like going for is the Oracle because of the free tech and because it gives me some priest points so I can build a shrine earlier. Wonder whoring is a trap that most good players avoid, it just slows down your development for very little benefit.

[Vampgelus]

I would agree for some wonders, like Arthemis Temple, but you just can't say Pyramids are not worth their hammers, or Great Lighthouse on coastal maps. Stonhenge is about the best early wonders, because it avoids you 90 for each city you get (marathon), and get's you a third of the creative trait (just like Parthenon gives you the half of PHI trait, GW the third of IMP trait, etc...). It allows you to take traits you cannot emulate by wonders or civics (like CHA or EXP). CHA makes Stonhenge even more profitable, and if you got a UB monument, it's a must-have.

But that's not the point. My question was how to combine REX and ancient wonders.

[rah]

Agreed. Pyramids, Oracle, and the Great lighthouse are the only early wonders that interest me. And these will depend on my early terrain.

Once I have a vibrant civ/economy, then I'll treat myself to a few select wonders that compliment the strat I'm using that game.

Wonders are made to be captured. The extra units you can build instead make it easier.

[Vampgelus]

Yeah, but declaring war on someone means -1 in diplomacy for almost everyone... so if I capture every single wonder, i'll be hated by everybody. If i build them by myself, no one will care about.

[snoopy369]

Early wonders aren't worth it, generally, because of the decrease in growth required to get them. IND and/or stone/marble makes a few of them worth it, sometimes, but even then you have to get at least one GOOD city out first (ie, able to produce more settlers of its own), and not be in a must-rush position.

[Crossfire]

'IF' I want to build early wonders, then I start with a worker so I can get some specials hooked up and if I have enough trees to warrant it I will research BW so I can chop settlers and more workers. I never build Stonehenge though. My earliest wonder would be Pyramids. I usually play on Emperor or Immortal and if I don't settle fast there isn't any room to settle. Cities win this game, not wonders so adequate settlers are ALWAYS the first priority. Only if I have enough production left over will I build wonders. Often the first wonder I build is the Great Library.

[jbp26]

stonehenge is far from the best early wonder, its effect is marginal at best. i avoid it simply because it comes so early, building stonehenge means i'm not building settlers. in the early stage, i have hardly ever encountered a situation where a wonder is more profitable than expansion, and have never encountered one where a wonder is more profitable than expansion by conquest.

[Virulent]

One early wonder I almost always end up building is the Statue of Zeus. I usually luck out and have Ivory by the time I want to build it and I can almost always finish it even if I don't beeline to Aesthetics early. For some reason the AI doesn't prioritize the SoZ despite it being one of the most powerful wonders in the game.

Interestingly enough the AI seems to highly value the Mausoleum (which is a very good wonder but nowhere as strong as the SoZ). I believe I have actually only built it once or twice.

[Theben]

Although I'll try for Stonehenge sometimes, mostly it's not worth it. Other cities can slave 1 pop to get a monument.

Generally I try to get Lighthouse and Great Wall; Lighthouse for the Merchant->Metalcasting followed by Oracle->Machinery. GW in my 2nd city cuz I play raging barbs and they can be annoying. Oracle helps me get priests also.

I will also try to get Artemis and Great Library in my GP city. Those free priests/scientists really add up.

Pyramids in 2nd city if possible, and Masoullos(sp?) eventually for +50% GAs.
If I can get any more wonders I'll put them in my GP city, with GE wonders in my Pyramids city. Wonders, IMO, are mainly for Great People and what they can do.

However all of the above is dependent on my situation. If it comes down to it I'll take extra cities instead, building my own and invading my neighbors.

[Krill]

Henge is, most of the time, an interesting choice, because if you can expand fast enough, it is sometimes just possible to get it in a second city on Prince and below by chopping forests/working mined plains hill at size 1 and not building many units prior to the settler etc. Above prince it isn't possible and in the capital it is pretty iffy unless you have stone.

Oracle depends on what tech you can get with it. It's worth more the later you can get it, obviously, but then you will have expanded early and be able to afford it more easily later on...it's a balancing act against the other civs.

Pyramids costs so much it should be ignored unless you are industrious or have stone, and even then depends on surounding terrain and if you have something to rush (killing an AI early on is better than the pyramids, if you know how to leverage the extra land).

GW...I can never make up my mind, depends on the barbs. If few barbs or I have a large army to rush someone, the barbs just are free XP, so the wall hurts me. If I'm trying to build a billion cities then the GW helps me as I dont need as large an army. The Gspy from it can also be worth a lot of techs...depends on how you want to play the game, SP/MP.

The rest aren't really early game wonders though...

[joncnunn]

If you REALLY want to build all eight ancient wonders, your going to have to play it like an OCC until those are complete.

[Krill]

You'd need stone and marble, and I'd probably only try it as Augustus and keep on restarting until I found a stone plains hill with a decent food resource in the fat cross. Go settler first and then start on Henge, so you can keep on expanding, and split the wonders between the first and second cities. Going to have to run a light military, so an islands map is probably preferable...but not a necessity.

[Supr49er]

For me, unless I am playing a civ with a monument UB (Egypt, Ethiopia, and the Native Americans I believe), I won't try to build Stonehenge unless I have stone, and nothing else to build. The +8 and +2 Great Prophets are nice to have, but not vital for me. Plus it obsoletes relatively early - Astronomy.

[Lord Avalon]

Originally posted by Vampgelus
Yeah, but declaring war on someone means -1 in diplomacy for almost everyone... so if I capture every single wonder, i'll be hated by everybody. If i build them by myself, no one will care about.

If you've conquered the world, what do you care if they hate you?

them!

[Willem]

Originally posted by Krill
Pyramids costs so much it should be ignored unless you are industrious or have stone, and even then depends on surounding terrain and if you have something to rush (killing an AI early on is better than the pyramids, if you know how to leverage the extra land).

I just tried to build the Pyramids in a Noble game since I had a nearby source of Stone and I still lost out. Which is not the first time that's happened. So from now on I won't even think about it unless I have Stone and I'm Industrious. It's just too much production to lose out on early in the game.

[wodan11]

How much cash did you get?

Wodan

[Vampgelus]

If you were IND, had stone, and still didn't get it, your starting location must have been awfull. Or you really suck

[Willem]

Originally posted by wodan11
How much cash did you get?

Wodan

I didn't notice. I was so disgusted that I just quit and started a new game. Nothing worse than wasting that much production so early. I don't mind losing out later in the game, but I could have made several Settlers with all those Hammers.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Vampgelus
If you were IND, had stone, and still didn't get it, your starting location must have been awfull. Or you really suck

Well that's the thing, I wasn't Industrious, I only had Stone. So it was probably some Industrious civ who also had Stone that beat me to it. I only had something like 20 turns to go. Though of course it's always possible that someone pops a Great Engineer and builds it that way. Or at least greatly reduces the cost.

[Diadem]

With stone I'd always go for the pyramids, if only because of the huge cash bonus you get if you loose. With 100% production bonus that's more cash per hammer than building wealth yields. A lot earlier.

[martin mcmartin]

hi Vamp,

IMO what you want is very difficult. the only way to achieve this is by playing aggressive. the map and AI location is critical. don't make settlers, you just need a strong UU in the early game and 2 AI capitals in the vicinity. crank out workers and UU's (vulure? is Gargamel IMP?) bronze working/Iron are a must to get out the units. rush the AI capitals and use them to build your wonders. speed is key, luck too, I have almost done it once on emperor level. I got bronze working in a hut, playing Gilgamesh, with ghandi and montezuma next door. did not build stonehenge myself, Ghandi did that for me. and I lost the pyramids to an AI on teh other half of the map. settings medium and small, 9 civs, large, marathon, emperor. on deity this is out of the question. you are lucky to get the Oracle....

I just thought of one other option: Ghandi or Asoka on islands map. no defence needed, just enough wood to chop. if you have enough fish and a few specials with hammers, you can research the techs needed, the workers with their double speed can do the job to get most wonders.

Mc

[wodan11]

Originally posted by Willem


I didn't notice. I was so disgusted that I just quit and started a new game. Nothing worse than wasting that much production so early. I don't mind losing out later in the game, but I could have made several Settlers with all those Hammers.

It's not a total waste like you make it out to be. With stone, you get free hammers. The cash you get converts that to gold. Which will allow you to run your sliders at deficit spending and thus get faster research for quite some time. Say you got 300 free hammers... that's like getting 2 free early techs!

Wodan

[Krill]

That's a weird definition of free...

[Willem]

Originally posted by wodan11
Which will allow you to run your sliders at deficit spending and thus get faster research for quite some time.

I don't run my sliders into the red. I'd rather have a healthy surplus that I can use for either upgrading my units or conducting espionage missions. So having a ton of cash that early wasn't going to be of any benefit to me since I couldn't do either one at the time. It was just money in the bank.

[Vampgelus]

What's the link between money in the bank and running spy missions ?

[snoopy369]

Nothing, since spy missions don't take money, unless you're not playing BtS...

[Willem]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Nothing, since spy missions don't take money, unless you're not playing BtS...

What are you talking about? Don't you have to spend gold in order to do things like steal techs, poison water supplies etc.? That's always been my presumption.

[Virulent]

Originally posted by Willem


What are you talking about? Don't you have to spend gold in order to do things like steal techs, poison water supplies etc.? That's always been my presumption.

You spend EP which is something you can convert your commerce to, similar to beakers and culture. So you are not quite spending gold.

Pre-BtS you spent actual surplus gold on the handful of (near-useless) espionage missions available.