Reply With QuoteI would have to think there's a better chance of me becoming an astronaut then this woman succeeding in this lawsuit.
Woman fired for talking back to her boss
HEY, you dumb fothermucker! I'm not even supposed to sign that form.
And your point is...?
Thu Sep 6, 1:55 PM ET
BEIJING (Reuters) - A Chinese woman is suing her former employer after falling victim to the company policy of firing staff who contradict their boss three times, local media reported on Thursday.
HWA-1 Enterprise Co Ltd, a light industrial manufacturer based in China's southeastern port city of Xiamen, sacked a woman surnamed Ni for refusing to pay fines she incurred for talking back to superiors, Xinhua news agency said, citing a local newspaper.
The company's policy held that a "first contradiction of superiors" would incur a fine of 30 yuan ($4), a second would incur 100 yuan, and a third would warrant dismissal, the agency said.
Ni incurred a 30 yuan fine after taking umbrage with her factory supervisor for reprimanding her for not filling in a form.
"The factory head told me that, according to company rules, no matter whether management is right or wrong, employees are not allowed to contradict them and must obey," Xinhua quoted Ni as saying.
Ni was then threatened with a 100 yuan fine for refusing to pay the first fine, and was sacked after she threatened to report her supervisor to the company's human resource's department.
The factory's supervisor, surnamed Cao, said it was his legal right to sack Ni.
"The company can terminate the contract of employees who seriously breach labor discipline or the company's rules," Xinhua quoted Cao as saying.
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I would have to think there's a better chance of me becoming an astronaut then this woman succeeding in this lawsuit.
To put this into perspective, consider this:
You work in an architectural firm as a draftsman. You're happily drawing lines when your boss (the architect) pops into your little draft space and tells you to sign off on some architectural blueprints. You say no because you're not the licensed architect here, she is. She is not amused and warns you that you're fired if you don't. You begrudgingly comply.
Congratulations, you've both just committed a serious crime. It is illegal to impersonate an architect in the United States. After the Great Fire of Chicago in 1871 and the 1906 San Fransisco Earthquake, the building industry put its foot down and got serious about organizing standard building codes, as well as about who could design buildings. Nowadays, there are serious legal consequences for violations of this system of rules and regulations because such violations threaten public health and safety. Architects go through extensive education and must become licensed before practicing, much like doctors must. A draftsman simply hasn't had as much education, nor gone through the heavy testing to earn a license. In 2005, Illinois slapped a $250,000 fine on one guy who forged the name of a dead architect for several different projects. Today, Frank Lloyd Wright would face similar legal troubles as he was never licensed.
Without knowing more details behind this woman's story, it is possible that she knew full well she could not fill out a particular form because she could be signing off on dangerous chemicals (she worked in light industry) that she simply does not have the authority to handle. Perhaps it was an order form for large equipment, which could have a serious impact on the company she worked for. I have to imagine that she wouldn't bother taking this to court if it was a form stating what she was bringing to next week's company picnic. I have to imagine it was an important enough form that she knew it was improper for her to fill it out, that she would get in trouble later FOR filling it out.
The cake is NOT a lie. It's so delicious and moist.
The Weighted Companion Cube is cheating on you, that slut.
togglecaps, this happened in China. She doesn't stand a chance.
Thanks, but already knew this. I actually heard about this story this morning from elsewhere. But the fact that it's in China doesn't automatically mean she'll lose, it just means there's a high probability of it. With all the negative press China has been receiving for its exports, if this woman was working in an relevant environment and refused to participate in an action which could have further marred Chinese exports, the government might hype her as an example of its citizens taking a stand against jeopardizing the safety and quality of Chinese products. We wouldn't hear anything further about this three strikes rule, but we'll hear about the great strides in blah blah this and superior snore that and the unity of the people.Originally posted by Kuciwalker
togglecaps, this happened in China. She doesn't stand a chance.
The cake is NOT a lie. It's so delicious and moist.
The Weighted Companion Cube is cheating on you, that slut.
The knights who say "Ni"...
Speaking of Erith:
"It's not twinned with anywhere, but it does have a suicide pact with Dagenham" - Linda Smith
Kuci, I'd have thought with your views on labour laws you'd be all for this kind of action, after all, it is the right of the boss.
I'm glad I'm allowed to speak up to my bosses - they just seem to speak out of their arses anyway.
Speaking of Erith:
"It's not twinned with anywhere, but it does have a suicide pact with Dagenham" - Linda Smith
It's her fault for getting into a sketchy business anyway.
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That's exactly what I thought...Originally posted by Provost Harrison
The knights who say "Ni"...
Her lawyer's name then should be... Eki-eki-tpang..something-something?
That company's policy is sooo medieval. I bet they use thumbscrews in sales department too.
I'm not a complete idiot: some parts are still missing.
Yeah, how dare she try and make a living! Unfortunately she may not have had the luxury of choice or was completely unaware.Originally posted by Apocalypse
It's her fault for getting into a sketchy business anyway.
Speaking of Erith:
"It's not twinned with anywhere, but it does have a suicide pact with Dagenham" - Linda Smith
Fired for talking back? That will teach them evil womyn. Next time she'll ask for permission to speak first
Banana
sounds like my last job... seriously serious on that
I was in a meeting and I disagreed with a manager and said so, they got mad, started yelling at some other dude... Later, my boss came to me and told me never to disagree with anyone again... I left that hell hole 3 months later and told them to kiss it
that felt good
best thing was that I gave my 2-weeks and after that day I never saw my boss as I assume he too busy playing damage control by going around and slandering my name. Good luck finding those final reports I was suppose to have turned in before I left!
I was going to say, is this better or worse than the United States where you can be fired for any reason?
But it's clearly worse. I mean, she was fired and fined for talking back to her boss. That's just insane.
"Opps, sorry about that. I wondered why my toilet paper felt so rough that day..."Originally posted by Japher
sounds like my last job... seriously serious on that
I was in a meeting and I disagreed with a manager and said so, they got mad, started yelling at some other dude... Later, my boss came to me and told me never to disagree with anyone again... I left that hell hole 3 months later and told them to kiss it
that felt good
best thing was that I gave my 2-weeks and after that day I never saw my boss as I assume he too busy playing damage control by going around and slandering my name. Good luck finding those final reports I was suppose to have turned in before I left!
The cake is NOT a lie. It's so delicious and moist.
The Weighted Companion Cube is cheating on you, that slut.
I don't think you really want to contradict your boss more than 3 times anyway. You would probably be fired anywhere.
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
Oh I hate arseholes like that. I remember Novartis. I made them a lovely CAPA spreadsheet that even did a mailmerge for them with all the outstanding tasks...saved them several days a month of manual work. Without me there maintaining the hidden column, sure as hell they'll never figure out how it works
Speaking of Erith:
"It's not twinned with anywhere, but it does have a suicide pact with Dagenham" - Linda Smith
Here we usually have contracts that tell you what you have to do at your job, and what the big no-nos are. Just disagreeing with your boss is usually not in there. Though some employers may try to get people fired in another way if they consider them a problem. But officially you can't fire people here just because they disagree with the boss.Originally posted by Kidicious
I don't think you really want to contradict your boss more than 3 times anyway. You would probably be fired anywhere.
But maybe it's evil communism.
Banana
I'm sure they can harass you (legally) all day until you quit if you keep disagreeing with them.Originally posted by BeBro
Here we usually have contracts that tell you what you have to do at your job, and what the big no-nos are. Just disagreeing with your boss is usually not in there. Though some employers may try to get people fired in another way if they consider them a problem. But officially you can't fire people here just because they disagree with the boss.
But maybe it's evil communism.
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
But they won't fine you!
My old manager never operated a single peice of equipment that he told other people to. And, when they weren't making deadlines would get mad at them, even if it was the equipment's fault, but then he didn't understand any of that.saved them several days a month of manual work. Without me there maintaining the hidden column, sure as hell they'll never figure out how it works
In my line of work, contradicting your boss isn't a good idea, but sometimes it is necessary. They should never ask you to do something that shouldn't be done per the FDA. My last job was doing just that, and when I told them they became angry and tried to get other people to do it. After I left, 3 other people left within a month. I hear they are still trying to get someone to do that thing.
Contradicting because you are defiant is one thing, contracicting because you believe it in your heart to be the best thing for the company and the bottom line is another thing. If, as a boss, you can awnser the "whys" of your employee, then you aren't a boss... you're a dictator.
There are indeed such cases sometimes here, but you aren't totally defenseless when working for someone. There are laws what an employer can do and what not, and they can't fire people without good reasons. These reasons have either to do with the worker not doing his job (=breaking the contract) or they occur in cases when the company runs into general trouble.Originally posted by Kidicious
I'm sure they can harass you (legally) all day until you quit if you keep disagreeing with them.
The public debate about this praxis is old, and often the companies are for changes to be able to fire people more easily, but so far we do not have a general simple "hire and fire" policy here. During recent years, when our economy was rather doing bad, it was argued from the business side that less tight rules for firing people would overall save jobs, but now since the economy is recovering the public debate seems to have died down a bit.
Banana
A boss is always a dictator. But a smart dictator knows how to get the most out of people and that means listening to them.Originally posted by Japher
If, as a boss, you can awnser the "whys" of your employee, then you aren't a boss... you're a dictator.
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
Yea, I would say that the person who gets along with the boss the worst would be first on the chopping block generally. But your system is good, don't get me wrong.Originally posted by BeBro
There are indeed such cases sometimes here, but you aren't totally defenseless when working for someone. There are laws what an employer can do and what not, and they can't fire people without good reasons. These reasons have either to do with the worker not doing his job (=breaking the contract) or they occur in cases when the company runs into general trouble.
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
Well, your taking her word that she simply contradicted the boss. Its all in how she did it. If she did so by saying "**** you you idiot, I'll do what I damn well want," which I find is probably more likely, then she deserves to be fired. If she said "Excuse me, but the actual process is supposed to be done this way, and here is the pub showing the process" then this guy is just a power hungry tool and he shoul dbe fired.
In any case, if I can get away with respectfully disagreeing with my boss, she sure as hell should.
"The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.
But if you contradict your boss 3 times there's something wrong. Either your boss is an idiot or you are. In the military both is true
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
That's because you have a very simplistic understanding of labor rights.Originally posted by Provost Harrison
Kuci, I'd have thought with your views on labour laws you'd be all for this kind of action, after all, it is the right of the boss.
That's funny, because stating that there should be no labour rights because of some misguided ideology looks extraordinarily simplistic to me. A realistic balance of requirements is what is needed.Originally posted by Kuciwalker
That's because you have a very simplistic understanding of labor rights.
Speaking of Erith:
"It's not twinned with anywhere, but it does have a suicide pact with Dagenham" - Linda Smith
That's funny, because stating that there should be no labour rights because of some misguided ideology looks extraordinarily simplistic to me.
Exactly my point: I never claimed that, and yet you somehow assume it's my position.
Last edited by Kuciwalker; September 7, 2007 at 10:23.
IIUC under employment at will she could certainly be fired in these circumstances. Based on whats in the OP.
Im not sure about the "fines" though. I think they might be questionable under US labor law.
"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber
also, in the US, while the company would technically have the right to fire her, she could try to prove it was gender discrimination or sexual harrassment, or whatever. In all likelihood a company with any depth of pockets, or a reputation to protect, would try to offer her SOMETHING, in return for a pledge to not sue them, rather than go through the hassle.
That provides some real, albeit inconsistent and unreliable, softening to "employment at will".
"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber
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