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The Holy Roman Empire? Seriously?!

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  • #31
    It is as Locutus said.

    I just do not understand how the fellow got time to learn History,

    Law, Languages, Math and Computers.

    Best regards,

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    • #32
      I don't like the inclusion of the HRE, even if Charlemagne deserves to be a Civ leader. Wouldn't it have been possible to allow Charlemagne as leader for both the French and the Germans with the restriction that he may not be choosen for both civs at the same time?

      Originally posted by Locutus
      If you make Charlemagne French you (a) have 4 French leaders while lots of other civs still have only 1, as you pointed out yourself (and you need De Gaulle for the WW2 scenario)
      I'm not in the "Hitler must be included in Civ4" camp, but you can surely see where your argument about De Gaulle leads.

      Just set the bPlayable and bAIPlayable values for the HRE in CivilizationInfos.xml to 0 and you never even need to be reminded that the game shipped with the HRE, while you still get to enjoy all the other good stuff that's in there.
      Thanks, I will consider doing that.
      "As far as general advice on mod-making: Go slow as far as adding new things to the game until you have the basic game all smoothed out ... Make sure the things you change are really imbalances and not just something that doesn't fit with your particular style of play." - WesW

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      • #33
        Originally posted by CyberShy
        @Hebrews
        I think that the Hebrews really really deserve to be in the game. Maybe they're small but their cultural impact on the world is huge, if not only for the reason that 2 of the major world religions (Christianity, Islam) have their offspring in some way in the Hebrew history. Not to start about their scientific influence in modern days, 160 noble price winners anyone!!??. And obviously their impact in modern times regarding the Middle East Problem.

        It's a pitty that there are still no Hebrews in since there are many interesting scenarios waiting!
        They're most probably not in b/c political reasons, and the fear for antisemitism. But once again, Judaism is in the game as a religion, and there haven't been huge islamitic demonstrations in front of the Firaxis office because "Saladin converted to Judaism" so far anyway. (Not to mention that I couldn't spread Islam to Arabia in one of my last games )
        The first Alphabet was the Hebrew Alphabet. The Hebrew Alphabet was the basis for the Greek Alphabet which was the basis for the for the Latin Alphabet which was the basis for the alphabets almost all European languages.
        USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!
        The video may avatar is from

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        • #34
          I don't think that the Hebrew alphabet is the oldest (known) alphabet, neither is it the oldest 3rd generation language either, as far as I have been informed.
          Formerly known as "CyberShy"
          Carpe Diem tamen Memento Mori

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          • #35
            Originally posted by CyberShy
            I don't think that the Hebrew alphabet is the oldest (known) alphabet, neither is it the oldest 3rd generation language either, as far as I have been informed.
            Mesopotamia and Egypt each had text before the Hebrews, but it was heirogliphic texts.
            USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!
            The video may avatar is from

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            • #36
              Originally posted by lockstep
              I'm not in the "Hitler must be included in Civ4" camp, but you can surely see where your argument about De Gaulle leads.
              This question should be thoroughly discussed in a separate thread.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Locutus

                He's called Charlemagne because that was his name: that is the Latinised version of his name and Latin was the lingua franca in those days (his native name was in some ancient Franconian language that doesn't exist anymore, I don't know if we know even what he was called in that). He's called that or something similar to that in most major European languages (French, English, Spanish, Italian), so most of the world knows him as such. Only in German, Scandinavian and Dutch is his name a variation of Karl der Große. If you never heard of the name Charlemagne that is an error on your side, not Firaxis's.
                Wait a second here, Locutus. Latin for Charles the Great is "Carolus Magnus." "Charlemagne" is the later French derivation of that. Since Old Frankish was a Germanic tongue, it is assumed that his original name was something similar to Karl der Grosse.

                By the way, here is something interesting -- Charlemagne's signature (or rather, the four awkward letters around the central diamond is his sig):

                The Apolytoner formerly known as Alexander01
                "God has given no greater spur to victory than contempt of death." - Hannibal Barca, c. 218 B.C.
                "We can legislate until doomsday but that will not make men righteous." - George Albert Smith, A.D. 1949
                The Kingdom of Jerusalem: Chronicles of the Golden Cross - a Crusader Kings After Action Report

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Will9


                  The first Alphabet was the Hebrew Alphabet. The Hebrew Alphabet was the basis for the Greek Alphabet which was the basis for the for the Latin Alphabet which was the basis for the alphabets almost all European languages.
                  The first alphabet was Phoenician. The Hebrews and Greeks refined it. That's also why the Bible is called that: after the Phoenician city of Byblos, where the Western alphabet may have begun.

                  Alexander: where do you find all of this? You're a wealth of info! BTW, the signature looks like the consonants of the Latinized "Karolus" - KRLS, no vowels.

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                  • #39
                    IIRC, though, Charlemagne's original Frankish name isn't actually known. Something like Karl der Grosse could be plausible, though - he was an extremely tall man by contemporary standards.
                    Solver, WePlayCiv Co-Administrator
                    Contact: solver-at-weplayciv-dot-com
                    I can kill you whenever I please... but not today. - The Cigarette Smoking Man

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                    • #40
                      I've always been of the opinion that he was most certainly a French leader. Making him a German leader [warning: bad attempt at historical analogy] is like making the King/PM of England during the seven years war the leader of the Americans.

                      But the solution to complaints is simpler than creating a whole new civ for Charlemagne: make him a leader of both the French and the Germans.

                      I may not like the inclusion of the HRE flavour but they will be the first civ I play as in BtS. Their unique unit and building look like they will make a very powerful pre gunpowder civ and Charlemagne - the only protective leader to start off with hunting - should have no trouble getting to that stage of the game.

                      CyberShy:
                      Can someone explain to me why Poland is considered to be a 'major' civ? I don't want to be cruel against the Polish people, but seriously..........
                      Because there are a number of vocal Poles at CFC.

                      Will9:
                      The first Alphabet was the Hebrew Alphabet. The Hebrew Alphabet was the basis for the Greek Alphabet which was the basis for the for the Latin Alphabet which was the basis for the alphabets almost all European languages.
                      You're confusing Semitic with Hebrew.
                      Last edited by Thedrin; June 21, 2007, 14:54.
                      LandMasses Version 3 Now Available since 18/05/2008.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Virdrago
                        BTW, the signature looks like the consonants of the Latinized "Karolus" - KRLS, no vowels.
                        This indicates, that he was neither French nor German, but most likely Polish.

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                        • #42
                          If I had my druthers, the HRE would be gone, Charlemagne would be a new leader (for France ideally), and there would be two "Native American" civs, either the Lakota (Sioux), Iroquois, or Anasazi.
                          "My nation is the world, and my religion is to do good." --Thomas Paine
                          "The subject of onanism is inexhaustable." --Sigmund Freud

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Virdrago

                            Alexander: where do you find all of this? You're a wealth of info! BTW, the signature looks like the consonants of the Latinized "Karolus" - KRLS, no vowels.
                            Heh. I saw it once many years ago, and finding it online was just a Google search away. Thanks for the compliment, btw.
                            This signature has been heavily debated. If it was just the Latin without vowels, it would have had a "C" instead of the "K." But if it's the Old Frankish, why the "S?" Some think it says "Karl's" or "Karol's." Other's think the diamond is an "A." Regardless, it's some form of his name.

                            Originally posted by Solver
                            IIRC, though, Charlemagne's original Frankish name isn't actually known. Something like Karl der Grosse could be plausible, though - he was an extremely tall man by contemporary standards.
                            Around 6'4" if memory serves. He was "Great" in every sense of the word. He was literally, as one of my old history professors put it, "Big Chuck." (Incidentally, this professor was an expert of Carolingian and early German history.)

                            Originally posted by Thedrin
                            I've always been of the opinion that he was most certainly a French leader. Making him a German leader [warning: bad attempt at historical analogy] is like making the King/PM of England during the seven years war the leader of the Americans.

                            But the solution to complaints is simpler than creating a whole new civ for Charlemagne: make him a leader of both the French and the Germans.
                            Charlemagne was the leader of both the French and the Germans.

                            The national identity of these groups was still forming when he reigned over them. The two major groups in his original empire were the "West Franks" in what is now eastern France, with Gallo-Roman influences, and the "East Franks" in what is now the German Rhineland, influenced by more heavily Germanic neighbors like the Bavarians, Swabians and Saxons who were later incorporated into the realm by Charlemagne.

                            A few generations after his death, without Charlemagne's strong unifying charisma and power, the diversifying national identities began to assert themselves more strongly, and his empire was ethnically split into east, west, and central, each ruled by one of three brothers, all his grandsons.

                            So you had France, speaking a Latinized tongue and ruled by Charles the Bald; Germany, speaking a Germanic tongue and ruled by Louis the German; and Lotharingia, an attempt at a third kingdom, named after its namesake Lothar and comprised mostly of the original Frankish homelands in Western Germany, centered on the city Aachen (still in Germany today). The third kingdom would eventually by subsumed by the other two.

                            At any rate, Charlemagne cannot be classified as exclusively French or German, as he was most definitely both.

                            I think the reason that Firaxis chose to make the HRE its own civ was that IMHO they didn't want to have the same leader for 2 civs, and they didn't want to anger either French or German players by giving Big Chuck to one or the other. So, a strange compromise.
                            The Apolytoner formerly known as Alexander01
                            "God has given no greater spur to victory than contempt of death." - Hannibal Barca, c. 218 B.C.
                            "We can legislate until doomsday but that will not make men righteous." - George Albert Smith, A.D. 1949
                            The Kingdom of Jerusalem: Chronicles of the Golden Cross - a Crusader Kings After Action Report

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                            • #44
                              At any rate, Charlemagne cannot be classified as exclusively French or German, as he was most definitely both.
                              I tend to view the Germany that's in CivIV as Prussian led Germany. I don't really see Charlemagne as a leader there but ti does work for the France in CivIV.
                              LandMasses Version 3 Now Available since 18/05/2008.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Thedrin


                                I tend to view the Germany that's in CivIV as Prussian led Germany.
                                I do, too. Which is why I modded in Konigsberg, Danzig, Breslau, and Stettin. And I also added the old Ukrainian cities to Russia, since Russia started out in the Ukraine and the cossacks were centred there... damn modern political correctness

                                But I'm OT.

                                The reason Charlemagne was "Frankish" was because he was the leader of the "West Franks" and the "East Franks" together. They split up when he died, and the West and East became France and Germany later, over time. That's why I feel Franks would have been better than HRE.
                                Last edited by Virdrago; June 21, 2007, 17:50.

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