The New World (cont...)

proviisori · June 18, 2007, 17:04

Uni is right... I couldn't log it either at that time.

I obviously can't be sure what happened, but IMHO 8 hours is not enough in that kind of situation.

One should always realize that people often sleep 8 hours and as we live in very different time zones, we often are sleeping / at work when you have the prime "game time".

uniteatteri · June 18, 2007, 17:10

I just edited my previous post, there were around 3 hours (not 8), because of the reload.

snoopy369 · June 18, 2007, 17:11

NYC was razed well before that. You played your turn on the 15th, as did I earlier that day, then late on the 15th or early on the 16th the turn rolled over. I played my turn sometime after that, and then logged in again late on the 16th showing 3 hours left (my post #67).

Not sure what happened after that, but it was certainly up for that period (and although it's possible it could've gone down between me playing it just after you played your turn, and the new turn 1070, it's unlikely as it would have had to have been brought up again; and the timer seemed about right when I logged in again.)

It must have gone down sometime later on the 16th, but I couldn't speak to that as I was at work all day.

snoopy369 · June 18, 2007, 17:14

Originally posted by proviisori
Uni is right... I couldn't log it either at that time.

I obviously can't be sure what happened, but IMHO 8 hours is not enough in that kind of situation.

One should always realize that people often sleep 8 hours and as we live in very different time zones, we often are sleeping / at work when you have the prime "game time".

8 hours is 1/3 of the entire turn, and that's as much as i'm willing to give here... I usually on work days have only 2 times I can play my turn, and they're 8 hours apart. Thus 8 hours will have to be what it is. I would have had to have risked missing the turn (I checked as soon as I got back, and there were only 3 hours left; and it seems to have gone down during that period as well) in order to not have played that turn.

uniteatteri · June 18, 2007, 17:24

If NYC was razed well before that, how on earth I would have had _more_ time to counter your double?

You also moved your force's first moves _after_ you had pressed enter, I don't know if this is right either.

Anyway, if it's necessary to login 3 times in 24 hours at 8 hour intervals, this game isn't for me.

uniteatteri · June 18, 2007, 17:26

I PM'd Rhoth to fill in for me.

Rhothaerill · June 18, 2007, 17:57

And I accepted.

But, um, yeah, let's just leave me out of the discussions going on here since I have no idea what happened. Just let me know when I'm supposed to play and what your login is since I forgot it since last time I filled in for you.

uniteatteri · June 18, 2007, 18:21

I'll provide you with the info needed, after this matter under discussion is solved, to spare you from the extra trouble.

Wittlich · June 18, 2007, 19:13

On a side note (since I have been eliminated from play already); After following the thread, I just have to say that I agree with Snoopy in principle.

Quite frankly, I think the entire problem with wartime "double moves" is just getting way out of control.

Mind you, this is only my own feelings on this. What I beleive is this:

War is on? - (use double-move "quasi-rules" when declared...no double moves)

Next turn is up and the person declared war upon is aware of the fact that WAR is on? - (Every man/woman for themselves)

Any complaints? - (War is hell, deal with it and move on)

Quite frankly, I beleive the "double-move rule" should only have an effect when WAR is first declared.

Once all parties have been informed of a wartime situation....how someone does or does not use their "playtime" is up to them. A player misses out in logging in their turn? To-bad, so-sad. Live and learn for the next round.

Simple and to the point.

Now I will duck back into the shadows of the spirit world.

proviisori · June 19, 2007, 02:27

I didn't play the turn this morning, because we are waiting the results of the roll back poll.

When the game is reloaded, reset the timer to 24 hours so I can play the turn when I get home.

Pinchak · June 19, 2007, 06:45

I tried making sense of both arguments... but it just gave me a headache.

The root of the problem is in the game mechanics, and the reliablity of gamespy (I assume it reset while i was away, since my wife has been warned about restarting the computer, and denies turning it off).

When I started the game up, there was 3 hours left on the timer, with snoopy being the only person who played a turn. With no notification to let the other players know the clock was once again ticking, I personally agree that a rollback is the most fair way to handle this.

Although both sides do have valid points, there is no easy fix... which is why I simply asked for a vote.

Rolling back.... hope I do this right....

*closes eyes, and slowly pushes the big red button...*

snoopy369 · June 19, 2007, 11:07

Looks like you did what you were looking to do (reset to AD 1070) perfectly

uniteatteri · June 19, 2007, 11:41

Yep, and snoopy again rushed first to move those units he had already moved after my last logout... and razed my city with a double move... The right thing to do is to roll back, and let me play my turn before snoopy moves those units he moved after my last logout (the units he moved after he had pressed enter).

That is the thing we are polling about, and you snoopy surely know that.

Pinchak · June 19, 2007, 13:17

The game went down with 3 hours left on the timer.

The game was reloaded to the same turn with 24 hours left on the timer.

Maybe I'm not seeing something, but with this new situation, Snoopy would only be able to play one turn, then have to wait a whole turn before the timer filpped again.

The reload was perfomed to address any problems that occured due to the unexpected shutdown/restart... not any issues that occured before the shutdown.

Although it is poor form, any "double move" action that happened before the shutdown is technically allowed. I believe our agreement months ago for this game was "no double moves at the start of a war", as opposed to "no double moves during a war".

Bottom line is that it is too hard to police, and therefore needs to be addressed on an honor basis, taking into consideration that sometimes people are forced into double moves based on their real life avaliblity.

uniteatteri · June 19, 2007, 15:05

I'm writing down this PTBS rule, so next time this conversation isn't needed:

"A person using a loophole in the rules to make a war time double move (first move done _after_ an enemy's turn, even when person actually had finished his turn by pressing enter _before_ the enemy), is completely legal and honorable, even when it leads to razing an enemy city at the most crucial moments of the game."

Pinchak · June 19, 2007, 15:12

Not sure I follow completely.

We had a LONG debate about this whole double move thing a few months ago.

Until the programmers engineer an in-game solution to address the problem, we either have to self police ourselfs, or just ignore the exploit and allow it.

My hope a few months back was to set some rules for self policing, but it was regarded by some as "too restrictive".

I think the answer is that the "Double move" is addressed before the game starts. That way, if people do not agree on how it is being handled they can opt out of the game entirely.

As it stands with this game, I believe we agreed no double moves to initiate war... otherwise they are allowed.

Personally, I think it needs to be rigorously policed, as it is a pretty major exploit. A game should be decided by stratagy... not login time.

Pinchak · June 19, 2007, 15:18

first move done _after_ an enemy's turn, even when person actually had finished his turn by pressing enter _before_ the enemy

Wait a second, i think i understand now...

Do you mean PlayerA finishes their turn, waits until PlayerB moves, then logs back in and moves more stuff?

THAT is underhanded... although alas we did not address this exploit at the begining of the game, and therefore is permitted.

My advice would be to fight fire with fire... if you catch my drift.

uniteatteri · June 19, 2007, 15:32

Originally posted by Pinchak
Do you mean PlayerA finishes their turn, waits until PlayerB moves, then logs back in and moves more stuff?

Exactly.

EDIT: ...and after that, next turn, PlayerA moves again before PlayerB.

uniteatteri · June 19, 2007, 15:41

Originally posted by Pinchak
My advice would be to fight fire with fire... if you catch my drift.

Well, the Aztecs are now controlled by Rhoth, so he'll do the fighting from now on

I was playing 3 pitbosses; in 2 of them I played poorly, and I'm eliminated in the other one, and crushed beyond any hope in the other. Also I'm having a vacation soon, so this was a good moment to back away from all pitbossing. Recent happenings in this game also helped me to decide to quit. Playing this just doesn't feel fun at all anymore.

Good luck all. Play hard and fair.

Crush them all, Rhoth!

Pinchak · June 19, 2007, 17:58

and after that, next turn, PlayerA moves again before PlayerB.

Wow... pretty cheap.

Then again, I have a hard time faulting someone for using every advantage at their disposal. All in all it is probably my fault more than anything for leaving rules concerning such exploits non-existant at the start of the game... then very ineffective when I tried to address it at a later time.

Well, when this one is over I'll host another... and these issues will be address in black and white before the game starts.

So hurry up and kill each other off quick!

proviisori · June 20, 2007, 00:16

As you wish, master...

Pinchak · June 21, 2007, 13:25

Gamespy rebooted like the whore it is.

Game is back up now.

snoopy369 · June 21, 2007, 14:39

Gamespy

Beta · June 21, 2007, 20:22

Originally posted by Pinchak
I went backpacking in Dolly Sods, WV for a few days,

Back now... had a great time. First night it stormed BAD while we were camped at 3900 feet. One of the strikes took down a tree about 50 yards from where we were.

Keen hiker here.

Looking up the area.

The storm sounds like it was ... er .. interesting.

Beta · June 21, 2007, 20:31

Originally posted by Pinchak

So hurry up and kill each other off quick!

Sorry for taking so long to check in here folks. I missed the entire debate, and to be honest, not sure what to say or add. Need to think about this for awhile. Pin is right though, we debated this long and hard at the start. The new wrinkle is the move after EOT is hit.

Maybe we should stick to pbem's. No! No! No!

Rhothaerill · June 24, 2007, 15:46

Hey can whomever is running this game set me up so I can register my civ in Civstats? I'm pretty sure Uni doesn't want it back.

Thanks.

Pinchak · June 24, 2007, 22:51

Beta: Yes, Dolly Sods is a backpackers paradise. Definatly check it out if you find yourself in that area. Matter of fact... let me know and maybe ill go with ya!

The time before last we hiked Blackbird trail up in the sods and got caught in a bad thunderstorm while in a field on top of a mountain! I literally laid facedown in mud praying for half an hour till the storm passed... yes, it was that intense. Considering half of us were using external metal frame packs... the chance of getting hit was VERY real.

Roth: Not sure how to do that, but i will look into it.

Rhothaerill · June 25, 2007, 00:52

Thanks Pinchak. I know one way, but it's only useful if I've already played my turn. You have to switch over to AI for a moment, and then I'll take over the Civ free and clear. Then I'd need the password for logging in on Civstats.

BTW, the game is not showing up on Gamespy right now.

Rhothaerill · June 26, 2007, 12:20

So is Aro even playing in this game anymore? He hasn't played his turn for at least as long as I've been playing, and probably longer.

Any chance of getting a replacement or turning him into an AI?