Jan III Sobieski scenario

[Jerec]

Originally from Tech's 'Making a ToT Scenario' Guide on SL

2.0 Before you start

The Rules Txt. file in ToT is funny. Some things can be changed at any time just by editing the Rules file. Others can't be changed after the game is started for the first time, although there is often a workaround involving a special events file. So it's better to plan ahead and create a modified Rules Txt. before starting the game. Here's my list of things that are difficult or impossible to change once the game has been launched for the first time:

1. Maps: Rivers (difficult), other terrain (tedious)

2. @LEADERS: supplementary leader titles, eg. 'Archbishop' (impossible)

3. @CIVILIZE2: which techs can be owned and researched by which civs
(difficult)

4. @LEADERS2: same as above.

5. @UNITS_ADVANCED: Fields B, (impossible) D, E, F, (difficult)

6. @MAP_TRANSPORT_RELATIONSHIPS: (difficult)

7. @INITIAL_SETTINGS: (tedious)

Don't worry unduly about these right now. They will all be covered below. And, as mentioned, there are workarounds.

Unfortunately, only the map transport relationships are covered in the guide on SL, contrary to what the quote says. So don't bother looking there for the answer.

[GhostOfDisco]

[img]2. @LEADERS: supplementary leader titles, eg. 'Archbishop' (impossible)[/img]
Drat.

As I'd rather not redo all that city placement, do any of the hex-editors think they could do this for me?

The custom titles:
Ottoman: Sultan, Sultan for Despotism, Monarchy and Fundamentalism (not sure which gov it will have)
Imperial: Emperor, Empress for Monarchy
Brandenberg: Elector, Electoress for Monarchy
Tartar: Khan, Khan for Despotism, Monarchy and Fundamentalism (again, not sure.)

[GhostOfDisco]

Well, I started a new map file (with correct ruler titles), but after all the progress I made with city placements and all that ... I'd rather not do it all over again. (Again, could hex-editors help me with this?)

On the other hand, I do think my Czestochowa was a little bit too far to the south...

One thing I've been wondering about is that at the time the scenario begins, the Tatars are allied with Cossacks against the Poles, but the Crimean Khan at the time was a supporter of Poland - should the Tatars be at war with Poland, or should Sobieski be fighting barbarian units?

[GhostOfDisco]

Well, I downloaded a hex-editing program and found where the custom leader stuff should be, but I'm not sure exactly how I can add the custom leader titles, if I can (which I hope is the case) ... can any of our resident hex-editors help me out here?

[GhostOfDisco]

Yes, I have some questions, but work has not stopped!

Here's a preview of the Transylvanian units:

[McMonkey]

Excellent mods. I especially like the flags!

Today I purchased a copy of Ospreys Vienna 1693. I am having a read of it now. There may be some useful info I can post if you don't have a copy yet.

There is info on the OOB, composition of Imperial, Polish-Lithuanian and Ottoman forces and some good maps as well as illustrations of various units.

From what I can see the units you have picked so far look right. The Austrian Infantry had started to wear a more standard greyish-white coat with coloured cuffs. Some of the units from Frederick the great could be easily modified to fit!

[AGRICOLA]

Originally posted by GhostOfDisco
Well, I downloaded a hex-editing program and found where the custom leader stuff should be, but I'm not sure exactly how I can add the custom leader titles, if I can (which I hope is the case) ... can any of our resident hex-editors help me out here?

Do you think that you could make a final decision on all civ names, their form of government, leader name and leader title? If so, then set up a rules file exactly as you want it to be, launch the game and save it.

At that point you should be able to use a hex editor to copy the appropriate section from the "good" game into the game that needs modification. If you are unsure about the hexediting, I can do it for you once you have a "good" game save.

[GhostOfDisco]

Well, here's the file, with rules, save with correct titles, and save with all the cities etc. so far...

[McMonkey]

I have some suggestions on city placement based on the maps from the Osprey book and my original map.

Târgoviºte (49,107) A city belonging to Vlad Tepes

Osijek (20,104)

Hermannstadt (45,101) Sibiu nowadays

Székesfehérvér (19,95) If room permits

Sarajevo (24,118) Currently way out of place!

Nis (36,120)

Satu Mare (39,91) Sathmar in German

Akkerman (64,116)

Philippopolis (51,125)

Esztergom (20,90) Turkish controlled but very important for Hungarians

Rust (13,97) Small, isolated town in the marshes on the banks of the Nausiedler See. I may be wrong but I believe it remained independent from the Ottomans!?

Sopron (14,100)

Olmütz. Maybe use this city in place of Ostrava?

Eger (28,90)

Debrecen (32,94)

Klausenburg. Old German name for Cluj.

Orsova (39,109)

Tuzla (24,112)

Banja Luka (15,115)

Varna (64,116)

Kronstadt. German name for Brasov.

Wikipedia is a good source for finding old city names and getting an idea of their size and importance at certain periods in history.

From the Middle Ages there were many German cities in Eastern Europe such as Hermannstadt, Klausenburg and Kronstadt. The German populations of these cities were driven out at the end of WWII but still retain their Germanic architecture.

[AGRICOLA]

I did get the right names into sobieski!.sav but not the titles. From what I can tell, titles are not saved in game files because there are none in namestitles.sav where both names and titles are correct.

Maybe some expert on rules.txt can figure out how rules needs to be changed in order to accomplish this. I was unable to figure out the exact workings of the @LEADER sections in rules.

The attached file has the correct leader names.

[GhostOfDisco]

Originally posted by AGRICOLA
I did get the right names into sobieski!.sav but not the titles. From what I can tell, titles are not saved in game files because there are none in namestitles.sav where both names and titles are correct.

Maybe some expert on rules.txt can figure out how rules needs to be changed in order to accomplish this. I was unable to figure out the exact workings of the @LEADER sections in rules.

The attached file has the correct leader names.

Yeah, I noticed that. When I looked at the Foreign Minister's stuff to see the leader titles, well ... looked at the attached file.

Perhaps the answer might be not to put the titles and names in the city save, but the cities and maybe roads in the leaders and titles save. Could that be done?

[AGRICOLA]

Perhaps the answer might be not to put the titles and names in the city save, but the cities and maybe roads in the leaders and titles save. Could that be done?

Sorry, but you've lost me. Within some practical considerations, does it really matter in what order you add things like civs, roads, cities, units etc. to the development game?

[GhostOfDisco]

Well, I've redone the city placement, which means all I need to do is finish it and do the roads, and the map will be done.

(Unit placement and such, however, is a different story...)

[Catfish]

Once you set the scenario flag in the names and titles save, you're going to end up with exactly the same problem as you did with the city placement save. See my post at the end of this thread. For this hack to work for the human player it requires the game to be saved and reloaded. If you'd seen the last few posts of the Sea Kings thread you'd have saved yourself a lot of bother. Mind you, Techumseh says that he couldn't get it to work. EZRhino's anomaly was unrelated (typos).

[GhostOfDisco]

I think you're right, though as I said, I redid the city placement in one of my "right names and titles" saves, so it's not that big a loss.

Though, some bad news ... it looks like I have to reboot the PC side of my computer. Though ,happily I was able to get all my Civ 2 files (both FW/MGE and ToT) to the Mac side, so I'll only be delayed about a day or so!

And here's the most current Sobieski map:

[GhostOfDisco]

And here's a preview of some more units: Wallachian light cavalry and Brandenberg infantry and dragoons:

(Note: I got the Brandenberg uniforms from the first three plates shown on this page of Prussian uniforms. Not sure if the infantryman's hat is a "French/Imperial" hat or a "Swedish" one (as in the TYW units where I got the hat), and I don't know any Brandenberg cavalry uniforms save the dragoons (at least, since they carry a rifle/carbine, I think that's what they are), but still...)

[Hans99]

Found this cool photo of the "Angel Plate Mail" from the polish cavalary.
Looks really impressive, so i thought i'll share it with ya in the forum.

[GhostOfDisco]

Bad news: The PC side is ... well, it's not pretty. Good news: none of my Sobieski stuff is lost and I managed to make this Swedish dragoon (who apparently hasn't changed outfits since the 30 Years' War! )

[McMonkey]

Hopefully this info gleaned from the Osprey 'Vienna 1683' book may be of use:

Ottoman Army made up of five elements:

- Kapu kulu 'Servants of the Porte' The standing army
- Toprakli 'Landed Ones'
- Serhadd kulu 'Border Provinces' Irregulars
- Yerli kulu Local troops raised by government administrators
- Auxiliaries from nations who paid tribute to the Porte

Kapu kulu:

Topcu gunners
Lagunci sappers and miners
Cebeci armourers and munition carriers
Sipahi horsemen
Janissaries

Toprakli:

Territorial Sipahi Heavy Cavalry
Cebeli less-well-off noble cuirassiers

Serhadd kulu:

Gonullu mounted volunteer heavy cavalry
Beli light horse
Deli mounted rangers
Azab Infantry and garrison troops
Seymen peasant militia
Muselem pioneers

Yerli kulu:

Tufekci fusiliers
Icareli border fort gunners

Auxiliaries:
Crimean Tartars, Moldavians, Wallachians and in 1683 Magyar Rebels

There are lists of numbers and illustrations that I can scan and add if that would be useful.

[GhostOfDisco]

There are lists of numbers and illustrations that I can scan and add if that would be useful.

Sure. That'd be great!

[GhostOfDisco]

Been doing some work regarding roads and such. I've got a few of them done (mostly in the west), basing my work on the road map of Frederick the Great (the scenario, not the man). I've looked a bit at the road map from Bonaparte 3, but I'm not sure how accurate it is (there seem to be too many roads in the Ukriane, for one thing). I've also been looking at Casus Belli, but I'm not so sure about the roads (some seem to be leading from a city to ... nowhere.)

But anyway, work is being done. And, for your enjoyment, here's all the units I've got in the game right now:

[GhostOfDisco]

Today I modified the unit names, so, for example, instead of "Polish Hussars" you get "Hussars [Pol]," or something like that. Why? Because when you have, say, "Brandenberg Brandenberg Infantry," it does seem a bit redundant. :P

(Though the names of the "vassal" units have stayed, so that the civs will be able to be in control of "Imperial Saxon Infantry" and "Ottoman Transylvanian Cavalry," to name but two.)

Also been wondering about the Scanian War (a war between Sweden and Denmark that began in 1675, for those who don't know). I haven't done all that much research on it, but I think the land action happened on Scania (hence the name ) and thus within the map. Simulating at least this part would be easy; generate some barbarian "Danish" units in southernmost Sweden. However, if it should happen is not so clear; I believe that Sobieski had a coalition of nations, namely France, the Ottoman Porte, Sweden, and of course Poland itself, that would start the war (or something) so that he could wrest Prussia away from Brandenberg and establish his son as Duke of Prussia, therefore ensuring (to some extent) a Sobieski dynasty and thus help stabilize the "anarchic" Polish republic. Unfortunately for Sobieski, the plan went awry when the Turks decided to invade Poland, thus the lost chance to take Prussia. I think at least one historian said that Sweden "dutifully" invaded Brandenberg's territory, but I can't be sure. (The chance of such an invasion is the main reason I kept Straslund in the map!) Would the Scanian War have happened even without the secret Sobieski plot. Maybe some experts on Danish and/or Swedish history can comment.

Also realized a funny thing about history - by the time of the Northern War; all the nations involved that are also in my scenario (Sweden, Russia, Prussia, Poland) all went through some major change (Swedish military uniformity, Peter the Great's military reforms, Frederick William's son crowning himself King of Prussia, and Poland's election of a Saxon monarch) that means the uniforms of that conflict differ from those of my scen's time.

Attached below is an alternative Swedish Curiasser, derived from a depiction of such a cavalryman in a depiction of the Battle for Warsaw during the Deluge. Don't know how accurate he is, or if he's in the same time period, but he's from the 1650s, which is pretty close to when my scenario begins...

[GhostOfDisco]

Oh! Something I've been meaning to ask but never remembered when posting ... does anyone know what the respective proportion was of Poland and Lithuania regarding army size and/or population? I've got an idea of how to compose the army, but now just how to split it between the army of the Crown and that of the Grand Duchy.

[Cyrion]

Very nice unit set you have there!

[McMonkey]

The Polish-Lithuanian army

The army of this dual monarchy was an intriguing mix of the western and eastern approaches to war. Although John III Sobieski was head of state in Poland and Lithuania, the two nations maintained separate military structures - however the internal organization of the armies, their tactics and equipment were the same. The standing army in 1683 was not large, mustering some 11,000 men; this was augmented in time of war by the General Ban - the raising of the nobles - although they did not have to serve outside the national borders, and if there was no money to pay them they were perfectly entitled to go home. The Polish-Lithuanian army recruited by various other means. Many were noble volunteers, who responded to the law that no man could hold public or ecclesiastical office unless he had served in the armed forces. The levy or conscription was also used, which augmented the infantry, with the state providing one sabre, musket and axe to one man in 12, who then became a foot soldier. Other methods comprised traditional recruiting, paid for by papal subsidies and the royal chest; the hiring of mercenaries; mobilizing vassals, such as the Cossacks; and, finally, relying upon allies, like the Tatars.

From the Osprey's Vienna 1683

[McMonkey]

I would not use the roads in Bonaparte III as a guide as I did no research into them whatsoever!

I will scan some of the units from the Osprey book to illustrate the style of the Imperial forces at the time. They appear to be more uniformed, like the units in Casus Belli, than some of the 30YW units you currently have. I think it was a transitional period in western armies. Generally though the units look great and will make for a very colourful scenario!

OOB info being typed up now

[McMonkey]

IMPERIAL AND POLISH FORCES

OUTSIDE THE CITY (UNTIL 14 JULY)

Prince Charles Sixte of Lorraine

Infantry: 21,000
Cavalry: 11,000
Hungarians: 5,000 (Esterhazy)
Total: 37,000 men

INSIDE THE CITY (14 JULY-12 SEPTEMBER)

Ernst Rudiger von Starhemberg

Infantry: 72 companies
Cavalry: 1 regiment of cuirassiers
City Guard
Total: c. 12,000 men

RELIEVING FORCE AT THE BATTLE OF KAHLENBERG

John III Sobieski, King of Poland

Imperial

Duke of Sachsen-Lauenburg

Infantry: 7 battalions
Cavalry: 42 squadrons

Saxon
John George III, Elector of Saxony

Infantry: 6 battalions
Cavalry: 12 squadrons

Bavarian
Maximilian II Emanuel, Elector of Bavaria

Infantry: 8 battalions
Cavalry: 19 squadrons
Circle (Kreis) troops

The Prince of Waldeck

Infantry: 6 battalions
Cavalry: 7 squadrons

Polish troops
Stanislaus Jablonowski, Great General of the Crown

Infantry: 3 brigades
Cavalry: 3 brigades
Hussars: 3 brigades


OTTOMAN FORCES

AT THE SIEGE OF VIENNA
Kara Mustafa, Grand Vizier

Right wing
Beylerbeyi of Diyarbekir, of Aleppo, of Anatolia

20 Ortas
5 x 8-24-pdr cannon
20 smaller artillery pieces

Centre
[B/]Kara Mustafa, Janissary Aga and the Beylerbeyi of Rumelia[/B]

Dismounted Portal and Provincial forces
5x 8-24-pdr cannon
20 smaller artillery pieces

Left wing
Beylerbeyi of Timisoara, of Sivas

20 Ortas and 500 technical troops
5 x 8-24-pdr cannon
20 smaller pieces

Totals: in the siege lines identified above - 15-20,000 men
To cover the siege and raid the countryside - c. 70,000 men

[GhostOfDisco]

Thanks!

I've also done some work on the game texts (though not everything I want yet.) I know that if your diplomatic reputation gets too low, and you offer a treaty or something, then the foreign diplomats start quoting Taras Bulba.

Also, I think I know the rough population of the populations vis-a-vis Lithuania and Poland, so now I think I know how to divide the Polish army.

[jim panse]

Hehe, sounds fun

Should you need some photographs from original places in Vienna (like what the place Kara Mustapha's tent stood looks now, let me know ;-)

[Cyrion]

Edit: how stupid can I be at times? I'll leave for your entertainment what I had written below, before I noticed there was a slight temporal misunderstanding...

There is a 45 minutes documentary on tv tonight on the 1529 Siege of Vienna (Hannes Schuler, Germany, 2006).

I'll record it, check what it contains and come back if some info could be of interest for you (you might already know its full content, though).