History of the World 8 - Set Up Thread

OzzyKP · January 20, 2007, 12:33

Ok, it is still somewhat early since HOTW7 is still going and has several weeks left to go. But this place is kind of dead and nothing livens everyone up more than planning out a new diplogame.

So how about it?

Things to discuss:

Timeslot
How many players
Which players
Which map or map settings
Tech trading rules
Mods

I'm tenitively in.

Robert Plomp · January 20, 2007, 13:29

That's always nice, a good setup thread!
Way to go to start it Ozz!

My first ideas (which may change of course if people come with good arguments)

Timeslot: maybe try epic for once. Marathon is great though.

9 players, maybe 10 at most. Maybe just all players in HOTWVII now. I'd love it to have a solid game now without droppers, leavers and many changes.

Map: Terra is doing great. Pangea might be fun for once as well though.

Tech Trading: I'd say: Trade Only Self Researched Techs (Unlimited) (TOSRT)
The bad thing at TORaCTT is the limit, it creates fixed 3 player alliances. It's impossible to help backwards civilizations and therefor it's hard to get back in the game once you're behind.

With TOSRT we still have the benefits of inventing something yourself and not losing control of your tech after you gave it to someone. Inventing a tech has a huge value in TOSRT.
Maybe a 2nd rule might be trowed in, only trade techs with civs with whom you have open borders.

Mods: UN Mod (all players can be voted in as UN Secretary General)

I would LOVE it if we could start earlier then the current game starts.

Toni · January 20, 2007, 14:31

YES HOTW8

Timeslot: Ok with what we got now opened to changes too. (possible 4hrs session?)

How many players:

9 players, maybe 10 at most. Maybe just all players in HOTWVII now. I'd love it to have a solid game now without droppers, leavers and many changes.

I agree with CS, but also lets include Levi who is pretty reliable. I talked to him and he will love to join us in HOTW8. A bit worried about Cole and Conq. I think we should not risk adding unproven players and players without Good Connection into HOTW8. Because you saw what happened in HOYW7.

Which players:
Players I would love to see in HOTW8 are: Deity, Ozzy, Nolan, CS, Kuno, Ryk, Mike, Dangime(Frank), Levi and myself.

Maybe one or two more players can be added but only RELIABLE PLS and if game allows it ONLY. I got a friend who I spoke too already and he said he would love to join us, he is 100% reliable. (but will check on him once more before we add him officially to the roster)

Which map or map settings:

maybe try epic for once. Marathon is great though.

I would love to stick to the Marathon speed guys!

Map: Terra is doing great. Pangea might be fun for once as well though.

Both work for me!

Tech trading rules:
Tech rules, what makes the group happy I don't care, will go with what the group decides on.

About the map size, I would love to have a bit more of land pls.

Also I would love it if we start off the HOTW8 immediately after ending HOTW7. I really don't wona wait for a +1 month to start it off. We got enough time while we are finishing the current game to set the HOTW8 up and fire it up asap after HOTW7

OzzyKP · January 20, 2007, 15:05

For the tech trading I'm wondering whether it would be a good idea to try some of Aussie's tech mods and just use that instead of tech trading. i.e. ban all tech trading and just use the mods.

The three mods would do the following:
1. If you sign open borders with a civ that has X tech, your research time of that tech is sped up.
2. If you conquer a city from a civ with X tech, you get beakers toward inventing that tech yourself.
3. Certain resources speed the research of certain techs. For example, having iron would make railroad quicker to invent.

I like 1 and 2, I'm not so sure on 3.

OzzyKP · January 20, 2007, 15:14

I agree that we should aim for like 10 players. Reliable of course is good. But I don't want to just mirror the cast from HOTW7. Getting new blood in is always good. And maybe Capo or Raz or someone is interested.

As for map, I definitely prefer Terra over Pangea. But I'm always open to trying a World Map now and then. I like having the map be a little squished, so I wouldn't want to give it more land.

I'd definitely like to use the Unit Stats mod. And probably others, but we need to check that out.

Also, since Toni asked about it, no doubling up on leaders. Ideally no doubling up on civs either, but possibly.

Robert Plomp · January 20, 2007, 16:07

I'm sorry, I don't like to alter the tech-mod as you describe it.
The 'twice' part of the rule did much harm to our last game (as I predicted already). Now just drop the 'twice' part and keep things as they are.

deity · January 20, 2007, 19:14

Originally posted by CyberShy
That's always nice, a good setup thread!
Way to go to start it Ozz!

My first ideas (which may change of course if people come with good arguments)

Timeslot: I would LOVE it if we could start earlier then the current game starts. (maybe try epic for once. Marathon is great though)

Timeslot: Agree with Cyber. I can go a few hours earlier too.
Games speed: Marathon

9 players, maybe 10 at most. Maybe just all players in HOTWVII now. I'd love it to have a solid game now without droppers, leavers and many changes.

Agreed

Map: Terra is doing great. Pangea might be fun for once as well though.

Map: Terra only way to go.

Tech Trading: I'd say: Trade Only Self Researched Techs (Unlimited) (TOSRT)

Totally agree on TORaCTT.

My vote:
1) No Tech Trading if group is all experienced players
2) TORST

Mods: UN Mod (all players can be voted in as UN Secretary General)

Agreed

Toni · January 20, 2007, 19:16

But I don't want to just mirror the cast from HOTW7. Getting new blood in is always good. And maybe Capo or Raz or someone is interested.

IF only they are reliable and got good connection and a decent PC.

The_Aussie_Lurker · January 20, 2007, 19:24

Well, one thing I can do is remove the botched 'ResearchTrade' mod from the TechMod and give you guys what is left. Is that OK? I am hoping that I can have a proper ResearchTrade mod for you before too long. When were you planning to start the game?

Aussie_Lurker.

deity · January 20, 2007, 19:24

Originally posted by OzzyKP

Also, since Toni asked about it, no doubling up on leaders. Ideally no doubling up on civs either, but possibly.

Now, we have to think this through carefully and fairly. HOTW7 was a grab bag. So don't post preferences just yet.

Firstly we need to confirm the players.

Then I suggest a rough ranking of the players overall (which might be interesting as a vote).

Then I suggest the civs and leaders are picked from the weakest to the strongest

OR

we all pick random.

Just a suggestion.... thoughts?

OzzyKP · January 20, 2007, 19:55

I could go for the ranking and picking. Could be interesting. Though I dunno about bad feelings from being voted the worst player, heh.

But definitely no random civs.

Toni · January 21, 2007, 00:56

Now, we have to think this through carefully and fairly. HOTW7 was a grab bag. So don't post preferences just yet.

I agree here I was one of the last to pick

Then I suggest the civs and leaders are picked from the weakest to the strongest

Like that Deity, not sure how that will be helpful to the weakest but hey its interesting!

Frank Johnson · January 21, 2007, 01:39

I think a return to a more normal tech trade reigeme could do diplo games some good. This game as well as some other limited or no trade games I've played kind of degrade as leaders emerge who go a set of units ahead of most of the other players and they take over the game. What's worse in this case is the diplo rules kind of expect players to resign themselves to this fate, even when they are effectively out of the game and could (and should) be brushed aside for the good of the game.

Go down to trade only techs you research yourself. This allows minor powers to keep in the action. There are a lot of other ways to measure power other than just tech. There were times in HOTW5 when America had more tech than the Chinese, since they were paying multiple clients for it. This current game lacks that dynamic.

Anyway I prefer to see trade only techs you research yourself. If someone can perfect one of the mods where you get a bonus for having open boarders with someone who already knows the tech your learning that would be great too.

Otherwise I think you guys did pretty well to overcome the connection issues to go as far as you have.

deity · January 21, 2007, 01:55

Originally posted by OzzyKP
I could go for the ranking and picking. Could be interesting. Though I dunno about bad feelings from being voted the worst player, heh.

But definitely no random civs.

I would roughly rank diplo players of recent games this way, taking into account starts and performance in the last two games:

1) ozzy - HOTW 5 winner
2) Toni - probable HOTW7 winner, maybe

3) Frank
4) deity
5) Cyber
6) Kuno
7) Capo
7) Mike - new comer
8) Nolan - sorry

9) Ryke - new comer
10) Levi - new comer - needs to trust us more

Others:

Raz
Marcus
Conq...

Sorry if I forgot anyone...

Add these from Civ 2 days if they are interested:

Ljube
DD...

And of course Trev would be near the top of the list if he played diplos but the time-slots seem not to work for him

KunojiLym · January 21, 2007, 04:57

I can pretty safely say that Ryk won't be joining future Diplo games, though he *will* play the current one to completion. For myself, it depends on my schedule as to whether I can make it.

I agree that we need to scrap the 'trade twice only' rule. Other than that, I'm open to ideas regarding rules for tech trading.

Toni · January 21, 2007, 08:29

With TOSRT we still have the benefits of inventing something yourself and not losing control of your tech after you gave it to someone. Inventing a tech has a huge value in TOSRT.

I love the whole TOSRT idea, I vote for it actually

Maybe a 2nd rule might be trowed in, only trade techs with civs with whom you have open borders.

This too please!!

Glohithia · January 21, 2007, 08:49

Much like Kuno said about Ryk, I will play this one out but will not be in the next one. Not that I didnt enjoy playing in HOTW7, but my work load and travel is starting to pick up again and I cant make the kind of commitment that is needed to be fair to the rest of the group.

But even though I wont be playing, I have an opinion on the rules

Tech trade should be a) eliminated or b) unlimited trading of techs you discovered. This will prevent the "permanent" alliances this game has. Id also make absolutely sure this gets Mod-ed into the game, that will prevent mistakes or AI cheats and eliminate any questions of impropriety.

I like the idea of making the game marathon, it makes the techs and units more relevant. I also like the idea of different types of maps, not always Terra. Or, if it had to be a Terra, how about the actual world map? I know there are a few good ones out there. I just wonder if the same basic goals of a Terra map dont make things a bit stale (but I wont be playing 3 HOTW's in a row, so what do I know, heh)

Ozzy had mentioned a few mods so I thought Id mention the Civ Fanatics website (can I say that here

) Up until this game, I had never played Warlords and hadnt played vanilla CIV for a long time. I had played only Sevo's mod, called SEVOMOD of course. Obviously, I find it superior to CIV and Warlords, but maybe thats just me. But if some of you want to check it out:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=219

As far as I know, it cant be played under Warlords. He is pretty good about detailing all changes made, its in Installation and Instructions. I think most of what he improved on would mesh nicely with a Diplo game.

Cheers and good luck with the new game!

Robert Plomp · January 21, 2007, 09:13

The_Aussie_Lurker, do you think it's possible to limit tech trading only to techs you have self-researched?
I think that Glohithia is right that that's best.

OzzyKP · January 21, 2007, 09:14

My rankings:

1) ozzy
2) deity (i'm tempted to put you first, based on years of ass kicking in civ2, but people seem to have short memories)
3) Frank
4) Toni
5) Kuno
6) Cyber
7) Mike - not a new comer
8) Ljube
9) Levi
10) Conq
11) Ryke
12) Capo
13) Raz
14) Nolan - sorry

OzzyKP · January 21, 2007, 09:15

Originally posted by CyberShy
The_Aussie_Lurker, do you think it's possible to limit tech trading only to techs you have self-researched?
I think that Glohithia is right that that's best.

If we decide to go with that can we delay tech trading?

Perhaps start it at paper or education instead of alphabet.

Robert Plomp · January 21, 2007, 09:24

Being ranked 5th and 6th is not so bad with my starting positions.

My rankings (only based on HOTW5 and HOTW7)
1. Ozzy
2. Deity
3. Toni (nobody can deny his greatness in 7, didn't saw him in any games and therefor he's on #3)
4. Kuno
5. Cyber (He, Ozz putted himself on #1, then I can put myself on #5 :P)
6. Frank (harder to judge him since he played both games only partly, would be higher if he would've played both games)
7. Capo (I think he did a good game in 5)
8. Nolan (always playing, even if she's backwards and behind, that's more important to diplogames then being 'good' imho.)
9. Conq/Mike/Ryke
10. Levi (leaving a game because you're losing is really not so diplogamish.)

Next game the #1 rule should be: If CS gets a really bad starting position AGAIN we restart

HOTW5: started 3 tiles from France and like 10 tiles from India. Had to fight the French culture from the beginning on to not get totally locked in.

HOTW7: start down south between tundra and ICE (impossible to found a city near my capital b/c of large ice fields)
And I've been nice to Nolan (Egypt) who was not so far from me as well (14 tiles?) in any other game I would've totally destroyed her and ruled Terra 8)

Robert Plomp · January 21, 2007, 09:34

Originally posted by OzzyKP

If we decide to go with that can we delay tech trading?

Perhaps start it at paper or education instead of alphabet.

That might be a good idea.
Paper and education may be a little bit too late though.

If we include the 'open borders are needed as well' rule we can just only decide to have open borders later in the game.

To make things even more perfect IMHO is that you can't declare war to a civ you have open borders with, and the closing of borders take 5-10 turns.

That gives a more 'friendship' feeling to Open Borders. You won't have open borders with all civs, which will naturally limit Tech Trading again.
Another addition is that back-stabbing (which is not so diplogamish) will be naturally prevented. Closing borders is one step into the direction of war.

Conclusion:
- Only trade self researched techs
- Only trade techs with civs you have open borders with
- Open Borders from ?? (Currency?)
- Can't declare war to civs you have open borders with
- Closing borders takes 10 turns (The moment you 'close' them the Open Borders trade becomes a 'new' trade that lasts for 10 turns.

The_Aussie_Lurker, can you create such a mod, and would you want to do that? (Only of course if all HOTW8 players would want to play with these rules)

OzzyKP · January 21, 2007, 09:35

Originally posted by CyberShy

5. Cyber (He, Ozz putted himself on #1, then I can put myself on #5 :P)

I only did that because I figured everyone would be upset if I didn't, and accuse me of trying to cheat to get a higher pick. I really don't think I'm the top player. I should probably be placed below Frank & Deity. But whatev, I'll pick last.

Also, the rankings is to determine skill level in game, not reliability.

OzzyKP · January 21, 2007, 09:39

I like the idea of giving open borders more weight. Most people just sign them with everyone automatically. Except me, cause I'm cool like that, but everyone was annoyed with me for not automatically opening my borders.

Backstabbing though I think is part of the game. It is never fun to be backstabbed, but it is something you have to prepare yourself for. Hitler and Stalin were allied one moment, and then Stalin got backstabbed. No 10 turn waiting period, heh.

Robert Plomp · January 21, 2007, 10:22

Glohithia, I like a lot of the ideas of the mod you linked to, but I think for a diplo game we should stay as close as possible to the real civ game, just to not alianate new players. Therefor I think we'd better only use mods that only improve the diplogame experience.

OZz, I agree that backstabbing is a part of the game. I'm looking for ways to make open borders more important, and ways to make it possible to get tighter alliances without the immediate 'mutual protection' stuff.

Toni · January 21, 2007, 14:04

Great to see Ozzy and CS working on the next rules. Some good things i see!

Also would everyone post his reliability for the game, what i mean if you are so sure you will be able to play it say 100% curtain I WILL

So we can start making a players list for the game! To see how many people are interested and sure to play!

RELIABLE

And also lets start posting time slots we will be ok playing, see what comes out.

I'm good with what we have right now, as i said before ok with changes too 100% i will be able ot make it. LOVE DIPLO

Toni · January 21, 2007, 14:09

Also can someone contact Capo, and check on him. let him know we will be starting say end of Feb. See if he can join us? That will be nice.

Thanks CS

Toni · January 21, 2007, 14:41

My ranking (taking into account starts and performance in HOTW8) I would have ranked very differently if I was ranking on overall skills and past records!

1. Cyber (with that horrible start you managed pretty well)
2. Deity (below average start but pulled it off, a great civ now)
3. Ozzy (like his game style, pulled of some nice wonders and managed to grow a strong civ)
4. Toni (below average start, due to some luck, timing and an Rome AI was able to make it work)
5. Kuno (a stable player)
6. Mike/Ryke
7. Frank (We had very little time to see the real Frank, and we should be greatful)
8. Levi/Conq (only here because they started as subs and really had to adjust to what the players before then started, much to fix. I’m sure we haven’t seen their real skills yet)
9. Nolan (Good diplo player, great to negotiate inside the game. Very Loyal)

Conclusion:
- Only trade self researched techs
- Only trade techs with civs you have open borders with
- Can't declare war to civs you have open borders with
- Closing borders takes 10 turns (The moment you 'close' them the Open Borders trade becomes a 'new' trade that lasts for 10 turns.

CS you got my vote here !!!

- Open Borders from ?? (Currency?)

A bit more tunning here is needed i think

Robert Plomp · January 21, 2007, 15:59

I like Toni's list most

condor223 · January 21, 2007, 17:49

I'm not as good as you are, so without tech trading, I'd not really feel in the middle of things. I'm a sorry player for sure.

(and not that good at the stories, cause im on the edge of things, like most small civs)

I had hoped we might use a slightly faster mode than marathon... as well as allowing trades unlimited that one researched themselves.

If there is a larger limit on trading tech, then there will definetly be less interaction, wheeling and dealing. I probably would not play the game otherwise. Let me know what the decision is.

At one time we discussed having 8-10 members, as those last few folks would gag on connecting. A standard sized map would hold that many easily and also allow for those of us who have older rigs.

Nolan