Civ IV Modding... DOA?

[Zen]

Hey everyone,

first off, although there is some frustration in my words below, this isn't simply a thread of complaints:

I'm an ocassional reader/poster here. I did lots of Civ II modding, and enjoyed it tremendously, even if it was nothing fancy, and just stored on my computer or my friends' computers.

I am wondering if there is a concensus on how easy/hard modding is with regards to Civ IV. AND WHETHER the decisions made (regarding modding) essentially discouraged many would-be modders from attempting to create scenarios/maps/mods. I know I fell into this camp. After attempting to create a map (and succeeding), I found it incredibly difficult to continue after placing cities and editing civ descriptions.
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Some stats:

Civ II: released in 1996, by 2001 there were over 800 maps/scenarios/mods archived. And there are over 400 stored in separate folders.
If we assume these two clusters are completely redundant that means there was an average of ~160 uploads/year (likely centered on specific release dates).

http://apolyton.net/dir/index.php?cat=4&t=sub_pages

CivIV: released in 2005, more than a year later there are less than 50 files stored here at apolyton (including mods/scenarios/maps/graphics/other files

http://apolyton.net/dir/index.php?t=sub_pages&cat=349
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I'd still like to try to do some modding, but I don't know all the programming language, and I think me using python would probably just end in failure. If there is some simple guide to using the SDK, I'd be interested in trying, but I really feel like the designers decided that the lay-user should just be ignored when it comes to modding. And I want to say that this really frustrates me. In other words, it seemed to me like there was a really steep learning curve that bordered on a vertical line.
I hope that Civ V might see some of the Civ II simplicity restored for the non-programmer user. Our scenarios/mods may not be as grand as someone who can program, but it keeps people into the game and it inspires othersr to be programers to be better at designing games.

if anyone has any suggestions regarding how a non-programmer can proceed, please give them. I haven't attempted to mod since early 2006.

thanks,
-Zen

[Smellycowsquid]

I know I am no expert, infact, I had done nothing, but I was able to create my own civilization, you should be able to jump right into the XML without much- but check here

And that should have some handy tips. One reason why I think there are less maps and scenarios is I don't think there are as many people. I don't know why but this forum(Creation) can be like a ghost town. I think Civfanatics has a much larger modding community, if you want to check there

[Dale]

Zen:

Hi and welcome to Poly.

The concern you've raised has been voiced by a number of people, and I can certainly understand the issue.

I too am a modder. However, unlike yourself I've been placed in the elite category. I was also involved in the development of the modding side of Civ4 way back when.

Basically, and I totally agree with their ascertation, Firaxis were aiming for a modding system that would promote less quantity higher quality. You mention there's 800 mods for Civ2. But tell me honestly, how many of those 800 are of a quality worth downloading and playing? Not too many at all. Similar situation for Civ3, CTP1 and CTP2. Therefore, Firaxis decided to promote a modding system which would enable lay-users to be able to create maps easily, whilst the in-depth conceptual mods would require a high level of programming knowledge.

But in light of the above, it is still easy to get into Civ4 modding. There are essentially 4 levels of modding, each higher technically.

At the base level, we have the in game WorldBuilder. The WB allows you to create a full map, place cities, units, terrain, improvements and features on the map. You can change diplomacy, turn on/off fog of war areas as well as adding buildings to cities and promotions to units. Quite simply, you can create an entire scenario from the WorldBuilder. The documentation for the WB is found here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=140519. After you've mastered the WB take a look at my analysis of WBS (WorldBuilder Save) files here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=141567. By opening the WBS in notepad you can edit advanced WB stuff. You'll understand what I mean when you read it.

The second level of modding is to mod the XML files. eXtensible Markup Language is textual based, which means if you open an XML file in notepad you can read and understand it very easily. For instance, in Civ4UnitInfos.xml every unit has the tag iCost. Pretty easy to work out what THAT means eh?

Modding the XML files will also introduce you to file dependance. This is important to get your head around, or you'll make a mash out of python and will explode in the SDK. Basically, an element in one of the XML files can be referenced in any number of other XML files.

For example, take a technology. A technology is defined in Civ4TechInfos.xml as one of many elements. Each technology has a large number of properties (tags). One of the properties of a technology is Description. This is the property that defines the name of the technology (EG: Alphabet). The value of this property will look similar to TXT_KEY_TECH_ALPHABET. But what does this mean? It refers to an element in one of the text files which defines TXT_KEY_TECH_ALPHABET = "Alphabet". You will also find on the other side that certain things refer to the alphabet technology. For example, the technology Mining allows the building of tile improvement Mine (which is stored in Civ4ImprovementInfos.xml). This is file dependance. If you change one thing, you need to remember any number of other things rely on it.

Once you understand file dependance, you're ready for the third level of modding, python. Python is a full programming language. It's very powerful as a scripting language, and fully supported by Civ4 via python boost. With python it is possible to modify Civ4 events. For example, one such event is "onGameStart" and "onEndTurn". This is how python is used in Civ4.

Say you wished to write a mod that gave players a new settler every 10 turns. You would write that in python. Python as a full programming language relys on file dependance. This is why it's important to understand file dependance before starting python. The first thing you'll do in Civ4 python is copy the Civ4 CvEventManager.py renaming it to your own filename and changing the link in CvEventInterface.py to point to your own event manager. So the first thing you will do is based on file dependance. (Just to note this for you, but the biggest complaint from people who are trying to mod are in relation to file dependance).

The final level of modding is the SDK. Technically it's incorrectly named, as it's not a proper "software development kit". There are no tools to assist in the use of the code, no documentation or help files, just the main game's core DLL file source code. This source code is in C++ (and was written in Microsoft Visual C++ 2003). I suggest not even looking at the SDK until you've learned how to program in C++ (ESPECIALLY classes and pointers/references!). Your head will explode otherwise.

Now I know that the third and fourth levels may seem way overboard and out of reach to the average modder. But honestly, (this is more true for CivFanatics files) even though the number of mods is small, the quality of them is extremely high. Civ4 community mods have been winning competitions, being published in magazines, incorporated in official Civ4 patches, and even some were sold with Warlords. This is pure evidence that Firaxis logic in taking the high-level modding out of the lay-users hands has paid off. Just take a look at Fall From Heaven. Though it's only one mod, the quality is amazing (fit to be sold by itself).

I hope I've helped to shed some light on modding for you. Anything else, just ask.

Dale

[Zen]

actually,
I am trying to see if I can convert the Civ IV World builder save into a Civ IV Warlords save file... The Warlord leader addition would make a lot of sense for my idea.
this may take me a while to find.
-Zen

[greenday_234]

slightly on topic question, why are there so few mods on here... almost none compared to Civfanatics.

[Dale]

Originally posted by Zen
actually,
I am trying to see if I can convert the Civ IV World builder save into a Civ IV Warlords save file... The Warlord leader addition would make a lot of sense for my idea.
this may take me a while to find.
-Zen

That's the easy bit.

Change the files extension from Civ4WorldBuilderSave to CivWarlordsWBSave.

That should do it.

Dale

[Dale]

Originally posted by greenday_234
slightly on topic question, why are there so few mods on here... almost none compared to Civfanatics.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I put most of my work at CFC because there's more people in civ4 over there.

Yes I know I'm a heretic for doing it, but I go where the audience is. My major mods are here in the directory though.

Dale

PS: Another gripe I have with here is the directory is hard to use, and very limited file space. You also have to wait for Dan to authorise the file which can take days or a month. CFC there's no such problem.

[Gavin Berchler]

Probably the largest civ4 mod on apolyton is based around the smac area...(http://apolyton.net/forums//forumdis...?s=&forumid=24)

I am also maintaining the presence Civfanatics purely because there are so many more modders there.

Because we are hosting most of our stuff through sourceforge, we don't really have a problem with storage space, however when it reaches a more releasable version, I plan on hosting it in both locations to maximise exposure.

[Dale]

I'll also state that just because nothing is out in the open, that doesn't mean nothing is going on.

Dale

[Zen]

Originally posted by Dale


That's the easy bit.

Change the files extension from Civ4WorldBuilderSave to CivWarlordsWBSave.

That should do it.

Dale

That's what I've been trying to do. Simply renaming the file with the ".CivWarlordsWBSave" didn't work. I may need to break out the Civ IV, and see if I can save it as a WarlordsWB...

or is there an easier way that I am overlooking? I probably am, just need to mess around some more...
-Zen

[Zen]

actually,

I opened a saved WarlordsWBsave file (in notepad) and replaced all the text with the text from my CivIVWorldBuilder file...
that seems to have worked....
although there may be a problem that I haven't detected yet.

-Zen

[Zen]

Copying and pasting seems to have worked... but the right 1/3 of the map or so is devoid of cities/units.

The info is present in the notepad (text) file, and the cities/units USED to be there, but they are no longer present for either the Civ IV or the Warlords game.

The improvements are still there (roads, farms, etc), but the cities/units don't exist on the eastern part of the map.
Total x = 57,
cities/units disappear after x= 40.

The file was last saved back in December 2005. I don't know what's wrong, but whatever it is only affects 1/3 of the code/file...

-Zen

EDIT: I managed to change the extension... Still had the problem. I eventually found that the problem was due to cities being assigned to player information that was apparently "incorrect". It appears to have been the "mao zedong" leader. Replaced that with a different leader and the info that followed and the problem was solved. Everything works. Now, to attempt to make progress.

[Gatekeeper]

I, too, have found out that modding Civ IV Warlords/Vanilla is a wee bit more intense than with Civ II. Odds are, I'll never get much into Python and SDK, though; as long as I can create maps and whatnot, I'll be a happy camper.

Gatekeeper

[padillah]

Originally posted by Dale
I'll also state that just because nothing is out in the open, that doesn't mean nothing is going on.

Dale

I can second that. Between the holidays, a couple new games, and not getting resolved what I want to resolve...I've been away for a while.

But I'm back and looking to make WorldPainter a lot more usable.

Tom P.

[Gatekeeper]

Padillah:

I know it's a stretch, but would you be interested in building a Northern Hemisphere map of the world? I'd be willing to work with you on it in more ways than one.

Gatekeeper

[padillah]

Sure, just PM me with what you feel you need.

I'm looking to add BMP or JPG import (much like the BMP to WBS converter) and some other nice tools.

This would give me insight from a map developer.

That sounds great!

Tom P.